V8 AWD Mercedes W201 190E

[The Dark Side of Will]

Pretty sure 4matic-1 is left hand drop and 4matic-2 is right hand drop.
The springs, struts and control arms won't care which side the diff is on.
Since I'd probably have to cut the transmission tunnel for T-case clearance anyway, I can do that on the right side instead of the left, so the driveline should fit in the body just as easily either way.

However, right hand drop T-cases are generally more rare than left hand drop T-cases. In addition, the diagrams I've seen of the 4matic-2 hardware seem to show that the front driveshaft is angled. It looks like the front diff pinion is straight, but the T-case front output is angled.

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4Matic



It looks like it uses a weird Audi-like angle gear set in the T-case:



Can it be done mechanically? Sure! Will it have better traction than a RWD equivalent? Sure!
Can the electronics that handle traction control be transplanted? Maybe...
Can I build a driveline around an NSG-370? Ummmm...

Edit:
All of that... except that this shows a left hand drop:

This is a 4matic-2 diagram from a 2002 E430 4Matic as it adapts to the 722.6. So the transfer case in 4matic-2 is also a separate piece.

I guess we are having two conversations here, using 4matic-1 to make an OM60x diesel AWD manual wagon. And using 4matic-2 to make a V8 6speed AWD 190E.

Edit again:
Right hand drop:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221369105604
http://www.ebay.com/itm/331026382639

A guy thinking thoughts similar to mine: http://mbworld.org/forums/c32-amg-c55-a ... -grin.html

[CincinnatiFiero]

That post from benzworld is cool, but is much easier than what you want to attempt lol. He replaced an M112 with another M112. The ecus are even the same part number. You just use Mercedes software to change the software on the ECU and you'd be ready to rock.

Put C240 oil pan on the AMG M112, add the intercooler to the C240, install and rock and roll. I'm sure I've over-simplified it slightly, but what he did is pretty straightforward. The C32 4-matic wagon was a topic of discussion when my buddy and I almost got hit in his C32 for the rest of that evening.

I believe you are correct about 4M-2 being right hand drop and 4M-1 being left hand, I do not know why that diagram from the EPC shows left hand.

If you were running a 6speed and a mechanical transfer case, wouldn't that eliminate all systems integration issues? Mercedes computers have a way to lock them into "dyno" mode where they forget about all of their systems like ABS, TCS, etc. I believe dyno mode is how some people have gotten away with stick swaps on more modern benzes with out going standalone. Guy's have done 5.0 M113 swaps into 6speed crossfires, the crossfire forum might be worth perusing to see what they are doing about making an M113 run without having a 722.6 auto behind it.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/me ... 92-190e-26

This isn't the article, but one of the articles on this car detailed how even Mercedes engineers with access to all the software they could ever want even made use of Dyno mode to simplify making this car run.

Bosch Motorsports has a few engine management options but they are all like $3,000-6,000.

Important to note, I drive 80s diesels and collect and work on 50s-70s cars. My knowledge is a bit limited on the really modern stuff, I'm hanging on as best I can, but please fact check me.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I believe you are correct about 4M-2 being right hand drop and 4M-1 being left hand, I do not know why that diagram from the EPC shows left hand.

The diagram may depict an ML320 T-case instead of E430:
http://4x4abc.com/ML320/tx.html



And here's a 722.6 (?) from an ML430: http://www.hollanderparts.com/UsedAutoP ... 0722%20662



Also, from this and other photos I've seen, it looks like the 722.6 has a removable bellhousing. Verrrrry interesting.

If you were running a 6speed and a mechanical transfer case, wouldn't that eliminate all systems integration issues?

Finding a T-case that:
-Bolts up to the Jeep transmission
-Is compact enough to use in a car
-Is right hand drop (ALL Jeeps are left hand, AFAIK)
...may be impossible

Like the ML T-case, Jeep T-cases have a low range gearset in the front portion of the case. This makes the T-case longer and bulkier overall. Also, the Jeep drops are much longer than the drop on the right hand drop Merc unit depicted above, which means more floor pan cutting.
Left hand drop vs. right hand drop is really not that big a deal, as a T-case originally mounted for left hand can simply be rotated for right hand drop. At certain angles, this is easy for Jeep T-cases, as the bolt pattern is a 6 bolt circle. At other angles, or for T-cases with irregular bolt patterns that would require an adapter plate.

Important to note, I drive 80s diesels and collect and work on 50s-70s cars. My knowledge is a bit limited on the really modern stuff, I'm hanging on as best I can, but please fact check me.

I'm the same way with BMW's. Unfortunately, the ones newer than the ones I play with have the nicest suspensions.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Put C240 oil pan on the AMG M112, add the intercooler to the C240, install and rock and roll. I'm sure I've over-simplified it slightly, but what he did is pretty straightforward. The C32 4-matic wagon was a topic of discussion when my buddy and I almost got hit in his C32 for the rest of that evening.

I believe you are correct about 4M-2 being right hand drop and 4M-1 being left hand, I do not know why that diagram from the EPC shows left hand.

What do you know (or where can I look up) about the W203 4matic? It's right hand drop, but a different T-case than the fancy cutaway photo above. The W203 T-case has a long enough drop to have a parallel driveshaft. Do you know the T-case designation? Looks like it's more or less a mirror image of the W124 T-case.

[CincinnatiFiero]

I know next to nothing about 203s. My buddy has an '02 C32, very little has gone wrong with it and its VERY fast for the money, but that's about all I know.

203s are getting to the age where they periodically appear at self service junkyards. In a couple years I'm sure they will be around for the pickin'.

Something about 722.6s. They have an issue where a seal where the eletrical connector comes out of the tranmission goes bad, they leak ATF into the harness and begin shifting erradically or not at all. The seal is under $20 and can be done at home. The dealer will replace the seal, the connector and the sub harness for like $1,000. Or you can buy the seal and eletrical contact cleaner and fix it for $25 at home most of the time.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I've been thinking about 190's... I ran into some info on their rear suspensions.



This is a 5 link setup that appears to be every bit as advanced as BMW's E90 rear suspension. That certainly makes it a heck of a lot better than the E30 rear suspension. Merc engineering is winning me over.

Also read this:
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2012 ... -turns-30/

[The Dark Side of Will]

Also found this thread: Merc hot rodding thread on BimmerForums (?)

Dude put an aftermarket twin screw blower on the naturally aspirated 5.5 liter AMG M113, put slicks on the back and ran low 10's at high 130's before a rod gave up and sawed the engine in half. He probably could easily have hit his goal of high 9's at low 140's just by swapping in a stock supercharged long block, but he's doing a sleeved full build "just to be sure".

Not sure if it has a built trans or not.

http://www.car-parts.com lists a 722.669 and a 722.670 for the 2000 E430 4matic. Any idea what the difference is?
.669's are $500-$600 on the low end.
.670's are less common and about $100 more.

T-cases are as low as $100...

Supercharged M113's are in the $2.7-$3k range sans blower

W124 4matic struts are $150 each close by...

I could get the majority of the swap driveline parts for $5k...

[CincinnatiFiero]

Called my buddy at the dealer, Mercedes doesn't give them huge spec sheets on transes like I had hoped he might have access to. So he started looking up a few random parts to see if anything major was different.

The cases and the bell housings are the the same between .669 and .670. However they do NOT have the same torque converter. Not sure what is different about them, but that is a different part number betwee the two.

Some of the sources I saw listed the .669 and 99-01 and the .670 as 00-01, which doesn't really make sense, but its something.

Get on ebay, you can find complete 55K motors for $4500-5000 periodically with the harnesses and accessories. There is one for sale on Pelican Parts right now, guy put a CL55K into a wall. I can dig up the link. He wants like $9k for the whole car, or will part it out.

Edit:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mer ... 5-amg.html

He's down to 7500 for the whole car. My only concern is it is a front end hit, but he may be able to sell you a whole harness, ecus, pcms, etc.

It would have a set of 6 piston front brakes on it that might bolt to a 190E. Mercedes hasn't really changed their caliper bolt spacing since like 1984. I have seen SLS brakes on a W124, I am pretty sure they bolt on with maybe spacers for the mounting bolts and a little clearancing on the spindle.

[CincinnatiFiero]

I have a 1985 190D 2.2 automatic for sale with 285k. Solid floors, but has jack point rust. Runs and drives, my dad has done about 6k in it without issue. Light Ivory / Palomino MB-Tex. Just got lemfoerder ball joints, new struts, and a set of used michelins. I'd take $1,500 for it. Drive it and get 32mpg while you acquire 5.5L/AWD bits.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Stop making it easy!

Does the A/C work?

[CincinnatiFiero]

Not presently. It holds a vacuum, the compressor turns smooth, and a have a new Behr drier for it. However W201s are the only Mercedes other than the R107 that I am aware of with vacuum heater control valves, and the heat is stuck on in this car which is why I parked it. My girlfriends 190D did the same thing when we first got it, trip to the smoke machine found one cracked line and fixed it. Just trying to find the hours in the day to get down to my cousins shop to put it on the smoke, and then charge the AC.

If I get it fixed and get more serious about selling it, I will post some more info.

[CincinnatiFiero]

Buddy just picked up a 300TE 4matic cheap so we are looking forward to learning more about the system. The front cross member already appears entirely different which could be an issue for swapping the drivetrain into another car. Though I guess we have been talking about an M113 V8 4matic so M103 nuances aren't all that relevant but we will see what we learn about 4m.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Cool. I'd really like to see some photos of it to compare... I tried looking up W124 4matic and W201 front suspension photos via google, but it was hard to tell what would interfere with what from that.

[CincinnatiFiero]

I've got 4 201s, 2 2wd 124s, and my buddies 4matic parked in my warehouse so I should be able to take plenty of reference pics.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Awesome... that's quite a collection. You have a lift, right?

[CincinnatiFiero]

I do not.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Wish I could help you with that...

A junk yard not far from where my dad lives shows W124 4matic front struts; they probably still have the control arms and crossmember if those are necessary parts. I was trying to figure out things about the steering linkage--front steer vs. rear steer--via Google image search for info about oil pan clearance and such.

[CincinnatiFiero]

W201 and W124 are recirculating ball. The steering box, drag link, idler arm etc are all at the back of the motor.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Even the W124 4matic? I would think rear-steer would get in the way of the driveshaft and diff...

The RWD E34 was rear steer with a steering box, but the AWD E34 was front steer with rack & pinion.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Zombie thread!

I knew that the Dodge Charger & LX Platform cousins use the Mercedes 722.6 five speed automatic, at least in the early cars.
I knew that the early LX cars were available with AWD.

Incidental to a discussion on another forum on controlling the ATC-700 transfer case from a BMW E70 X5 for use in project Bad Idea, I put two and two together.

The LX AWD is right hand drop, just like the Mercedes 4Matic systems. I could use the LX transfer case in this project. Awesome!

Introductory threads I've found:
https://www.chargerforums.com/threads/a ... it.137664/
http://www.scatpackforums.com/board/eng ... ystem.html
https://www.factorychryslerparts.com/sh ... bly=669585

Importantly, from the first thread:

from FSM:
'05-'08 = Magna Steyr 140 transfer case.
The MS140 is an all-wheel-drive transfer case system that divides power between the front and rear differentials and transmits power to both axles at all times. Its planetary center differential delivers approximately 62 percent of the engine torque to the rear axle and 38 percent to the front.

'09-'10 = Borg Warner 44-40 transfer case.
The Borg Warner 44-40 is a full time all-wheel drive transfer case with a fixed gear ratio. Depending on traction conditions, the PCM will modulate the electromagnetic clutch assembly to vary the amount of torque applied to the front axle. Torque is transmitted through the input shaft to the clutch and drive sprocket assembly, and is transferred directly to the rear propeller shaft, and to the output shaft and front propeller shaft by the drive chain. The oil pump circulates gear lube throughout the case to provide clutch cooling, and the PCM monitors the temperature of the transfer case with a temperature sensor.