The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Real tech discussion on design, fabrication, testing, development of custom or adapted parts for Pontiac Fieros. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

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The Dark Side of Will
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Last weekend:

I realized I've had a battery boil over event at some point. As you can tell from the pulley end of the forward cylinder head and the condition of the battery tray if I'd posted photos of it, there's a lot more corrosion around the battery than there is elsewhere. Feh.

I asked in some other places about keeping an aluminum engine shiny and found out that POR-15 now makes a CLEAR product, which I think is exactly what the doctor ordered. I'll get some of that on the way.

Fine tuning the block on the stand:

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Getting the balancer off:

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Obligatory naked timing drive photo:

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Some of the brains of the beast:

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Left head off:

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Oh hey, there's a bunch of oil in the chambers... where'd that come from?

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Both heads off:

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Starting on the bottom end:

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Pulling the oil manifold:

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Lower crank case off:

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Measuring rod bolt relaxation to make sure non took a permanent set:

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Got a few more to do:

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I tore the engine all the way down to a bare block last weekend... gotta measure rings, get the block cleaned up and figure more things out.

#'s 6 & 8 have some corrosion from sitting through seasonal changes with the intake valves open, so the block needs to be re-honed. :( Total Seal has a ring at 3.682 bore size, so that sounds like the next step.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by ericjon262 »

Glad to see you're able to make some progress, are you planning on staying with the gapless top ring?
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Absolutely, yes.

I found a place in north Jersey called Promar that remanufactures Northstars. They have a super fancy computer controlled Rottler hone with diamond stones and profilometer feedback... just what the doctor ordered. I'll have them hone the block.

I've asked CP for their distributors/vendors local to where my dad lives, which is where the engine is. I need to get the block cleaned first and foremost. I might as well have that done at the same shop that orders the CPs.

Once I've located that shop and had a discussion with CP & Promar to confirm 3.682 is a good idea, I'll be able to order the rings. Once the rings are made, CP can cut the pistons for those rings and get both on their way here. I'll take pistons and block up to Promar for final bore finishing and maybe a <.005 "courtesy pass" on the block deck.

I'm thinking that I'll try clear POR-15 in the V to preserve a nice shiny aluminum finish, and Cerakote MC-5100Q on the outer surfaces of the block, for the same purpose, but just to try a different product.

When I ordered my current set of pistons, 93mm was an odd bore size. The only forging CP had was a conventional style part. Since then 3.5-3.7 liter V6's with bores in that size range have proliferated across the industry. Maybe CP has a lighter part now, like an X-style forging. Total Seal's 3.682 rings are available down to 1.2mm, so I'll go with that thickness. I'll have CP add lateral gas ports and possibly their "constant pressure" groove, as well as ceramic crown and moly skirt coatings. They also offer top ring groove anodizing, so I may go with that as well, depending on their recommendation for use cases. Now that I'm more familiar with how hard the Cadillac bores are, I'm not concerned about bore wear from gas ports.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I've made a lot of progress on the parking brake over the last few weeks. Because I'm super stoked, here are a bunch of photos:

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The plungers in the expander were tapered slightly, and I'd only measured the ends, so I had to punch the bore in the expander block out from 0.562 to 0.578. 14.5mm would be the ideal size, but 37/64 is a drill bit Americans have.
Everything up to this point works... I pull on the lever and the shoe expands. I have not yet bought the very short 8mm bolts and clipped washers to hold the block into the backing plate, but those are coming up soon.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Here's a piston. As the photo shows, the oil rings are the correct thickness for the pistons, so that theory went out the window real quick.

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Here's my flywheel in progress:

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Twin disk
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Welded:

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"The perfect weld is always a millisecond from disaster"... Note the bulging on the front surface from the welds on the back surface.

The flywheel ended up right at 11#, which is heavier than I'd hoped, but I deliberately left a bunch of extra steel in it to soak up heat from slipping it in traffic. The most important 3#, the band around the perimeter, is GONE, so that's a big deal and should make this unit spin up quicker than an 8# aluminum unit.

The stock clutch assembly consists of a 14# flywheel, which is already pretty light, a 14# pressure plate an a 3ish # disk. That's 31#. With an 8# aluminum flywheel, that's still a 25# assembly, but with potential reliability problems from the aluminum flywheel.

I'm not exactly sure what the TIlton's final assembly weight is, but even at 10# for pressure plate and disks, the entire assembly would be 21#, which is not only 4# lighter than the stock type assembly with an aluminum flywheel, the smaller diameter gives it SIGNIFICANTLY less moment of inertia, so it will spin up MUCH faster than any stock type clutch/flywheel assembly.
Shaun41178(2) wrote: Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:34 pm Twin disk
Correctamundo
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Here's modifying the Mitsubishi rotor for use as a fit check tool:

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And photos of the corners of the expander block that are making light/intermittent contact with the drum:

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And the ultimate result:

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by ericjon262 »

The progress is AWESOME! that flywheel setup looks pretty trick, and very simple too. the brakes are an epic win, looks like all that's needed is a couple quick passes with a file and it'll have more than enough! do you think that setup would fit 88 knuckles?
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The existing backing plate design will work with large pattern bearings like the C7 Vette I've been using, W-Body, U-Body, etc.

I could alter the backing plate design to work with the smaller Fiero bearing... but why? That doesn't make the bearing any more durable.

The backing plate also moves the bearing out 5/16" from the knuckle. My initial stab at the location of the expander block was slightly further outboard than it should be. The plungers are not centered on the tips of the shoe. Moving it inboard will get that geometry right as well as thoroughly solving any clearance problems.

Most importantly, I can pull on the lever and the brake prevents the drum from turning, so it does actually work.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by ericjon262 »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:35 pm The existing backing plate design will work with large pattern bearings like the C7 Vette I've been using, W-Body, U-Body, etc.

I could alter the backing plate design to work with the smaller Fiero bearing... but why? That doesn't make the bearing any more durable.

The backing plate also moves the bearing out 5/16" from the knuckle. My initial stab at the location of the expander block was slightly further outboard than it should be. The plungers are not centered on the tips of the shoe. Moving it inboard will get that geometry right as well as thoroughly solving any clearance problems.

Most importantly, I can pull on the lever and the brake prevents the drum from turning, so it does actually work.
mainly because my car has 88 rear knuckles which are not easily adapted to a stronger unit, eventually, I will try to make something more robust work, but I still would like to have a parking brake of some kind.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

I want a flywheel made for an ls4 crank pattern
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Shaun41178(2) wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:12 pm I want a flywheel made for an ls4 crank pattern
What transmission? The one pictured should work with Muncie, Getrag, Isuzu and F23. The F40 will take a different (Simpler! No welding) design.

I have no problem making you one, but I'd like to test mine first to make sure the design is right.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Getrag.

Doesnt even have to be for a twin disk either.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Aren't you planning something like 600 torques?
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Not with the ls4 unless I turbo but not planning that unless a twin is Definately doable for the getrag.

Till then just planning to make around 400hp with the ls4
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The flywheel I just made is designed to fit a twin disk in a Getrag.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Nice. Just gotta figure out the throw out bearing right like the one you got from Steven?

If a throwout bearing existed for that setup I would have bought it.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Shaun41178(2) wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:41 pm Nice. Just gotta figure out the throw out bearing right like the one you got from Steven?

If a throwout bearing existed for that setup I would have bought it.
I'll post some pics this weekend, but there are witness marks and abnormal wear on the pressure plate fingers indicating it was used with a stock style throw out bearing.
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