The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Fwiw, they provide some very basic testing data on their website. I don't think creep will be a problem.

https://www.cerakote.com/resources/testing

The video is pretty hilarious... they didn't do battery acid, though.

[ericjon262]

Fwiw, they provide some very basic testing data on their website. I don't think creep will be a problem.

https://www.cerakote.com/resources/testing

The video is pretty hilarious... they didn't do battery acid, though.

I actually skipped the video and had scrolled down to the test info before it started... it is pretty funny though.

[The Dark Side of Will]

The '93-'99 blocks have head bolt holes that are ~3" deep with threads (well... time-serts in my old block) that start at ~1.325 deep.
These engines use 140mm head bolts and the head bolt bosses in the cylinder heads are ~3.010 tall. Head bolt thread engagement was ~1.175 or 2.7 bolt diameters.

I found out that several of the changes I was attributing to '04 actually happened for '00.

In '00, GM reworked the dies that form the sides of the block. They did not rework the valley die, the end dies or the crankcase die.
The side dies have the upper crank sensor boss, the cooling jacket drain bosses, most of the accessory mounting bosses, etc.
The side dies also define the casting features which receive the head bolt threads. Since GM updated these dies for '00, they lengthened the casting features that receive the head bolt threads. The lower/outer rows of head bolt holes in the '00-'03 blocks are ~3.800 deep overall with a starting depth of ~2.025 for the threads.

Since GM was not changing the valley die for the '00 update, they did not extend the casting features for the upper/inner rows of head bolts. However, since they were completely changing the cylinder head castings, they made the upper/inner head bolt bosses in the cylinder heads taller, up to ~3.660. The '00-'03 upper/inner head bolt threads are slightly deeper at ~1.380 starting depth.

Those changes to the block and heads let them increase the bolt length from 140mm to 156mm, though they kept the 11x1.5 thread.

For '04, GM switched to the 11x2.0 thread and further increased bolt length to 161mm. The upper/inner bolt holes couldn't go any deeper, but the threads actually go shallower at 1.150 starting depth. The lower/outer bolt holes got slightly shallower at ~3.600 with threads starting at ~1.800. Thread engagement went up to ~1.525.

LS's use multiple head bolt lengths. All are 11x.20. <'04 engines use three different lengths, one of which is 155mm. The '05+ LS engines changed the design so that the longest bolt is 100mm.

Soo.... Where does that leave me?
I will be using Cometic MLS gaskets, so the stock torque sequence is out the window.
At Alan Johnson's suggestion, I used 70 ftlbs on my previous engine and had no problems.
I will install thread inserts no matter what.
Because I'm using '<99 cylinder heads, EITHER I'm limited to the 140mm early bolts or my current ARP 204-4204 studs in the upper/inner rows OR I need to machine spacers to use 11x2.0x161mm bolts with the shorter <'99 upper/inner head bolt bosses.

I need to measure out the 'serted and virgin hole diameters to see if the material is in the block to install the 11x1.5 inserts at the <'99 depth in the lower/outer bolt holes. That would let me run my current studs all around again.

I can install the 11x2.0 inserts all around at the '04+ block depths, and machine spacers to use the 11x2.0x161mm bolts in the upper/inner locations as noted above. I still need to figure out torque based on preload and buy a new set of head bolts (not expensive) but I would not be able to reuse my current studs

I can install the 11x2.0 inserts at the '04+ depth in the lower/outer locations. AND install the 11x1.5 inserts at the <'99 depth in the upper/inner locations. That would let me use 11x1.5x140mm bolts in the upper/inner locations and 11x2.0x161mm Northstar bolts in the lower/outer locations. I'd have to do some math to figure out the torque to get the clamp load right, using 70ftlbs on the 7/16-20 thread at the top ends of the ARP studs as the benchmark. I'll end up with different torques for each row.

If I "split the pitch" as described above I could also use ARP's 11x2.0 LS long studs--which *probably* have 7/16-20 upper threads--in the lower/outer locations... that at least means I use the same torque on both rows.

I need to call ARP about the upper thread and snagging 10 of those long studs, since I need to call them about ordering eight 11x1.5x0.880" LS flywheel bolts anyway.

[ericjon262]

Does ARP offer custom fasteners? it might also be an available option, if you go that's an option I would order a few extra.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I had planned to bolt the heads on to investigate how the main bores pull when the heads are bolted up. I can't do that with the older heads until I get spacers, which I guess I ought to do. McMaster has 1" OD x 1/2" ID x 5/8" long 6061 aluminum spacers, which sound great, considering I don't have to make them.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Does ARP offer custom fasteners? it might also be an available option, if you go that's an option I would order a few extra.

I don't think I need custom fasteners and don't want to pay for them anyway. ARP lists things as kits, but neither catalog nor website show PNs for individual application specific fasteners like the LS studs or flywheel bolts. I have to call to get the individual fastener PNs and place an order for custom quantities. The early LS stud kit has 16 long studs, but I'd need either 10 or 20; the LS flywheel bolt kit has six, but I need eight.

[ericjon262]

Does ARP offer custom fasteners? it might also be an available option, if you go that's an option I would order a few extra.

I don't think I need custom fasteners and don't want to pay for them anyway. ARP lists things as kits, but neither catalog nor website show PNs for individual application specific fasteners like the LS studs or flywheel bolts. I have to call to get the individual bolt PNs and place and order for custom quantities. The early LS stud kit has 16 long studs, but I'd need either 10 or 20; the LS flywheel bolt kit has six, but I need eight.

I find it strange that they don't have a catalog of "off the shelf" studs so people can find specific studs by size instead of application.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I find it strange that they don't have a catalog of "off the shelf" studs so people can find specific studs by size instead of application.

I think that market is probably small enough that they're ok with people calling to get that info.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Last two weekends I've worked on both the Northstar and the '88 upper control arms.

For the Northstar, I got the bottom end bolted up, measured the main bores, then bolted on the '95 heads, measured the main bores again, then split the bottom end, installed the bearings and measured those.

The "one up" measurement orientation (shown below) showed 0.0002-0.0003 change with the heads bolted up, but the 2 up measurement did not change. Weird. So the main bores change shape and ideally should be honed with the heads bolted up. Interdasting.

This is how I had to do main bore measurements:



This is how I had to read the 0.0001's on the mic.



2006 bolt in 2006 head, upper row:


2006 bolt in 2006 head, lower row:


2006 head bolts getting cleaned:


"2 up" measurement:


"1 up" measurement:


1993-1999 Northstar heads bolted on to 2006+ Northstar block:


And all it requires are 10x of these spacers, McMaster PN 92510A596

[The Dark Side of Will]

Soo... Promar said that blocks are their shortage. I said I have one each of '93, '00-'04 and '06+ blocks. They said they aren't interested in bartering. I replied with a more polite form of "you sure about that?" They can still hone whatever block I provide, even with the torque plate.

They use Federal Mogul "rebuild" bearings, which are +0.25mm on the OD and -0.50mm on the ID. That is the only size those are offered in. My last experience with cutting a crank didn't go well, so I'm no wild about those. Owing to the change of shape of the main bores, I'm wondering if I need to get mine line honed with the heads on. I did that on the '93 block by skim cutting the lower crank case. The surface finish on the top of the '06 lower crank case is VERY coarse... I wonder if this has anything to do with GM's swap to RTV as the sealant of choice for the case halves, although this block still had GM's case half seals.

Anyway, since a solution wasn't forthcoming there, I bought this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/133340495195
It's what I was looking for in the first place, but it wasn't listed when I started looking... besides, seeing how the '06's worked in different ways would have been harder without taking one apart. At least that's what I'll tell myself as I pay the credit card bill.

EJC Performance is an interesting outfit... they do business with a bunch of junk yards around them, taking damaged engines that the yards can't sell as running engines, then breaking those down into major components (blocks, cranks, cylinder heads) to sell. They have stuff from a whole lot of MFGs covering US, Japanese, German and whatever else. Sometimes the engines they get have damage as light as a cracked oil pan, but the yards just don't want to mess with them. EJC also scraps damaged components (spun bearings, etc.) as their business model is to sell usable parts and not have come-backs. I found their website and called them. The guy I spoke to actually went to the block on the shelf while I was on the phone and looked at it for me. No scoring or pitting, just normal wear. Decks didn't look like it had a head gasket problem. I threw down. He said they ship Duramax blocks freight, but the Northstar block would just go UPS ground, which is also pretty wild.

I'll still go to Promar to have the bores honed, but may have it line honed locally... WITH the heads bolted on. I need to get the lower crank case decked a smidge, but prototype guy is trying to invent himself as an engine machinist, so I'll let him take that on.

[pmbrunelle]

What do you need Promar for that the corner engine rebuilding service can't do?

(I do vaguely remember stories of oil consumption due to problems with your cylinder bores)

[The Dark Side of Will]

Following two failed attempts to get the bores honed correctly, I was informed of Promar, as they do rebuilt Northstar crate engines. They have the CNC hone, diamond stones, profilometer feedback and process to get the bores right. Northstar bore liners are hard... but I guess I need to get a sample and actually check hardness.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Block arrived yesterday... my dad checked it over. The bores look great, but it's going to need clean up and deburring (again), as well as porting the oil drainbacks and bay-to-bay breathing windows and drilling/tapping the block drain bosses. I want to measure the main bores before & after installing the heads to see how much they change. I need to decide if I want to have a local shop line-bore it with the heads on... probably a good course of action since I want to spin it to 8500.

[pmbrunelle]

I also use my dad for second opinions and bouncing ideas.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Sat morn I had to do some Navy admin, Sat afternoon took my dad's neighbor's dog to the emergency vet; Sunday morn completed drawings and junk and dropped parts off for the Eagle locker, then Sunday afternoon worked on my dad's small block Eagle swap. Go jack shit done on the Northstar over the weekend, which is annoying, but I think I finally cracked the code on the Eagle locker.

[ericjon262]

I wouldn't know what to do sometimes without a phone call to the old man, I may have a more scientific background than he does, but he pulls some crazy good ideas out of thin air sometimes.

Any long term thoughts on one of those STSV/XLR superchargers?

Dog come through ok?

[The Dark Side of Will]

The dog was ok. The Vet said it was just diarrhea, and that the behavior of trying to go and looking like they can't is indicative of that. Of course old Charlie kept thinking she couldn't "go", so he never actually gave her any of the medication the Vet gave us. She got over it in a few more days. Don't eat dead things, mutt.

Fiero drivelines don't need the instant torque that a supercharger can give, and the car doesn't need the extra weight... The supercharger itself is a big chunk of mass, plus the pump, reservoir, heat exchanger and coolant in the LONG loop a Fiero would have. The RWD engines that are built for boost are WAY more difficult to install in a Fiero than the FWD engines. I don't need that kind of pain in my life.

I helped my roommate from Afghanistan move over the weekend.

I also got the new block deburred and ported the bay-to-bay breathing windows. My dad's taking it in to the basic machine shop to be cleaned this week. I think the seller probably cleaned it as well, although I suspect that was prior to disassembly. I also made a much of chips and filings. No such thing as too clean for assembly. I'll probably take it to the local race shop next week to be line-bored with the heads torqued up. Probably after that I'll take it to the ceramic coating place to have MC-5100 applied to the exterior surfaces, and then to ProMar for bore honing... although I may swap those last two.

[ericjon262]

The dog was ok. The Vet said it was just diarrhea, and that the behavior of trying to go and looking like they can't is indicative of that. Of course old Charlie kept thinking she couldn't "go", so he never actually gave her any of the medication the Vet gave us. She got over it in a few more days. Don't eat dead things, mutt.

Fiero drivelines don't need the instant torque that a supercharger can give, and the car doesn't need the extra weight... The supercharger itself is a big chunk of mass, plus the pump, reservoir, heat exchanger and coolant in the LONG loop a Fiero would have. The RWD engines that are built for boost are WAY more difficult to install in a Fiero than the FWD engines. I don't need that kind of pain in my life.

I helped my roommate from Afghanistan move over the weekend.

I also got the new block deburred and ported the bay-to-bay breathing windows. My dad's taking it in to the basic machine shop to be cleaned this week. I think the seller probably cleaned it as well, although I suspect that was prior to disassembly. I also made a much of chips and filings. No such thing as too clean for assembly. I'll probably take it to the local race shop next week to be line-bored with the heads torqued up. Probably after that I'll take it to the ceramic coating place to have MC-5100 applied to the exterior surfaces, and then to ProMar for bore honing... although I may swap those last two.

LOL, glad to hear the pup did ok!


you don't need the pain, but apparently I eventually do...

[The Dark Side of Will]

Going to cast manifolds to bolt that up to your LX9?

[ericjon262]

Going to cast manifolds to bolt that up to your LX9?

short answer, no. long answer, maybe kinda, but not really in the way most might think, but that's another thread.