If you had to chose between these two swaps...

FormulaGT · Post by **FormulaGT** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:25 pm

Heres the deal, I have decided which swaps I like, but making the final desicion is hard. Help me out.

Option 1:
Built 3.4 P/R, DesignOne's turbo setup with upgraded turbo to push 10lbs, and a HalTech E8 ECU.

I like this setup because it will still look mostly stock (love that plenum). Also being able to fully tune the car live, retain the correct F/R weight distribution for handling purposes, and of course the turbo. Thing is, Im afraid that the HP wont be enough, and stock SRT's will still walk me. I DONT want that.

Option 2:
Crate ZZ4 with reversed TPI setup.

This setup will be a TORQUE MONSTER, have the ballzy V8 sound, and have more of a "coolness" factor. Thing about this swap tho....it gets bad gas mileage, throws off the cars balance, and will most likely cost more. And I keep hearing that the 1/4 times are not that impressive, high 13's?

Give me your input on what you think would be a better choice, and why. I dont want to here about 3.8's or DOHC's, I know there nice, just not for me.

Shaun41178(2) · Post by **Shaun41178(2)** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:33 pm

YOu mentioned some bad points about the v8 swap but didnt' mention any bad points about the 3.4 swap. Seems to me you already made that decision

:dontknow:

If it was me, and I had to make a choice, I would go with the v6. However I would try to find a much larger turbo. I think Kevin at design one now has a larger turbo option but it costs a bit more. The stock turbo with his kit is too small for a 2.8 so it would def be too small on a 3.4.

The tpi will really hurt your power unless you spend some money on an aftermarket unit. I think someone else did that same motor swap with a TPi and did high 13's in the qtr.

Its up to you, noone here can make the decision for you. Me personally likes the v6 turbo idea. Smooth onset of tq and can still have a big powerband if done right and tuned right. THe v8 could end up breaking a few trannies if you try to race it.

The Dark Side of Will · Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:34 pm

If you build a 3.4 PR, you can run decent boost. Don't limit yourself to 10 psi. There's a lot more power that can be had. (Buy a set of the Falconer heads I have for sale :thumbleft: )

The V8's can be quite fast, IF they're set up right... just like ANY other car.

FormulaGT · Post by **FormulaGT** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:42 pm

I am leaning towards the V6, I just dont want to go threw all the trouble (money mainly) of doing this swap and not having it fast enough for me. I really have no idea on how this setup would perform. Im guessing 270hp, maybe 220 at the wheels. I guess if its not fast enough I can shoot a wet 50 shot at it.

I did look into aftermarket FI setups for the 350, Edelbrocks Performer EFI kit being the nicer one. Problem for me is, for my taste, no intake looks better than a chrome TPI with SLP runners. It's just the handling thing that makes me worry the most with this swap. Thats why I would choose the ZZ4, it has aluminum heads which would essentially help that problem.

FormulaGT · Post by **FormulaGT** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:45 pm

How much boost can the 3.4 take, any experience? Your heads come complete?

The Dark Side of Will · Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:14 pm

Falconer heads: phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2930

There's a guy in Europe with a no-holds barred 2.8 that he claims is making 500 HP on a 20+ psi of boost.

crzyone · Post by **crzyone** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:25 pm

FormulaGT wrote:Ino intake looks better than a chrome TPI with SLP runners.

Are you worried about looks or performance? I would install a stock Vette LT1 over a TPI any day. I think an LT1 looks better with the vette beauty covers.

I would personally build a 3.4 to make around 300-400hp with a proper size turbo. You could probibly build a bulletproof 3.4 for the price of a V-8 conversion kit.

Nothing is more fun than a turbo car. I love the surge of a turbo spooling and the awesome sounds they make.

donk_316 · Post by **donk_316** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:29 pm

err yeah but i would start wiith a 3400 block. roller cam and lifters, be a shame to put those gen1 iron heads on it though.

Shaun41178(2) · Post by **Shaun41178(2)** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:38 pm

I forgot to mention earlier if you do go turbo try to find a KFG turbo kit. Not even sure if its made anymore but it uses a larger turbo then the design one. I do think the design one kit is a damn good kit, its just the turbo is too small. THe kfg kit uses a T3 based turbo, which can easily be upgraded to a t3/4 later on to make more power. With the Design one kit it would cost a lot more to upgrade turbos because that kit uses IHI turbos which aren't as common as Garret turbos. Might be $1k for a upgraded IHI turbo with th edesign one kit. NOt sure though.

Fierocious · Post by **Fierocious** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:16 am

option 3.
Built up L67.

FormulaGT · Post by **FormulaGT** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:19 am

I am worried about both looks and performance. If its not visualy appealing in my eyes, why would I want it? Granted the LT1 does look better, but now you are spending more money for the kit, plus the axles are $900 a pop. Yeah, forget that idea.

I do like the sound of the 3400 roller, but I was under the assumtion there are no aftermarket cams for them. Custom valves and pushrods will have to be made as well correct? What about the aftermarket industry for this engine, does one exist?

Reasons for chosing the Design1 system is because, once again, it looks better, cleaner than the KFG. Design1 also includes a new exhaust (manual trans), and it retains the OE air cleaner housing, again keeping it looking factory. You are right tho, the IHI turbo sucks from what Ive been hearing, and I am hoping there is an aftermarket for it. Hopefully there is a turbo that will replace that unit all together.

Thanks for the input so far guys.

The Dark Side of Will · Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:36 am

IHI makes good turbos... the one with the D1 kit is just too small.

If you like the way the D1 kit is laid out, talk to D1 and see if they'll send you one without the turbo. Cut the IHI flange off and weld a Garret flange on. Problem solved.

If you're worried about light weight and handling, DEFINITELY go with the 3400. You save 25# off the top of the engine with the aluminum heads. If you're careful, you can keep the turbo setup in the 35-40# range... you can add 150+ HP to the car with a 15# weight gain.

Stock 3400's can put over 300 to the wheels with an efficient turbo. They respond to boost like crazy.

FormulaGT · Post by **FormulaGT** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:48 pm

I think I will do as you say, just cut the IHI flange and weld in a Garret type.

I dont believe you can use the Fiero intake on the 3400 if you use the aluminum heads. I pretty sure their different, and custom headers will probably need to be made. Does sound interesting tho.....

The Dark Side of Will · Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:58 pm

Correct. The Fiero intake is not compatible with the aluminum heads. If you're after serious horsepower, you want to get rid of the Fiero intake anyway.

3400 engine & turbo setup pics:
http://images.google.com/images?q=3400+ ... =&filter=0

3400 plenum:
http://grajek.tripod.com/GrandAmGT1/340 ... tering.jpg

Sort of. The stock is not red and has some lines above and below the "3400 SFI" lettering.

MNFatz · Post by **MNFatz** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:10 pm

I'm the lone SBC guy around here. I've got a ZZ4 with about 300 miles on the swap. Warning: have money in the bank before doing it.

Dump the TPI; it'll choke a ZZ4. People use TPIs on V8s because they were the end-all-be-all to induction in the 80s. They're absolutely worthless for performance in today's world. You're better off with a good modern carb (Barry Grant) than an ancient tpi.

Someone around here is getting 300+ wheel horsepower out of a ZZ4 with a 600 edelbrock on it (another crime against humanity btw) and little else done to it. As far as I'm concerned the only thing to put on top of an sbc right now is a holley stealth ram--I'm trying to talk myself into one.

The Dark Side of Will · Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:35 pm

HSR FTW for Cheviness...

Although TWM has some stuff that is Teh Pyoor Secks, if you gots da skratch: http://www.twminduction.com/v8_kits/chevy.html

gt7 · Post by **gt7** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:18 am

This is what is in my car: Sbc / Edelbrock 600 carb / Edelbrock Performer dual plane intake / Edelbrock hydraulic cam (good but don't go overboard on cam) / Summit hp distributor. 350 low compression crate motor runs good on regular gas. Out-of-crate 265 hp, estimate as modded 300-320 hp. Lots of torque at any speed.

Car handles fine (87 gt). Getrag is weak spot, but haven't broken it yet. Car hooks up well, hold on when you step on the gas. 1st gear is almost not needed except when pulling out cold in cooler weather.

Simple, easy to tune and debug. Feels reasonably faster than my 12.4 second 440-4v roadrunner. I'll let you know when I take it to the track eventually. Expect 12.0s out of it at the strip. It gets 19-20 mpg city, 23-24 mpg highway.

Weponhead · Post by **Weponhead** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:02 am

this is why i decided on the 3800 bored .030 over with a 3.0 pulley, something in the area of 11 lb's of boost with that pulley? im not positive. and im going to throw a cam and some valve springs in , and swap to a 5 spd and have a gutsy daily driver. im looking at 12's in the 1/4 .. maybe if i can drive it right with some drag radials and not break the tranny , 11's .. if i get it tuned right i hope to look at about 300 + whp.. but time will tell.

I_wear_pants · Post by **I_wear_pants** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:36 am

Heres some guys who had some luck with a 3.4 turbo http://www.force-fed-fabrications.com/index2.htm . Maybe you could find some useful info on there.....

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:40 am

FormulaGT wrote: I do like the sound of the 3400 roller, but I was under the assumtion there are no aftermarket cams for them. Custom valves and pushrods will have to be made as well correct? What about the aftermarket industry for this engine, does one exist?

Who cares? Even the factory weak cam is still just as strong as the 2.8's aftermarket pieces, and now you have a MUCH better valvetrain, higher flowing intakes, higher flowing heads, and a decent FI system to go with it. And for the info, there is a guy making 3400 cams, however he is known to be quite a shady character, and won't realease ANY numbers/dimensions from his cams.

I know you don't want to hear it, but if you're fine with a 3400, why not 1 up it to a 3.4 DOHC? You obviously don't care enough about looks, as a 3400 doesn't look anything at all like a 2.8. And performance is obviously much stronger on the 3.4 DOHC. And they respond to boost better than any V6 you can build or find. 400hp with 10psi, 450hp with 13psi, all on an otherwise stock motor. Or step up to a 3800. Why everyone suggests these motors is simple. They maximize reliability, ease of swapm, power, and still stay on budget. A 3400 swap is going to cost the same, if not more, than a 3.4 DOHC. The result? You're DOWN 35-40hp to start with. And down 65hp from the 3800 SC. So why not spend the same amount of cash, and have a faster, more reliable, Fiero? Spend the money you'd drop on a turbo system to equal a 3800's stock power on a suspension.

And lastly, if for some ignorant reason you choose to stay with the 3.4 OHV, why are you going to buy a turbo kit, just to hack it up and redo it? Why not build your own? Get rid of the shitty manifolds, build some shorty headers. Then a crossover, hang a decent turbo, and finish it off. You'd be better off financially, and you'll be making much more power. And what do these "kits" include as far as tuning is concerned? A chip that "should" work well for a 2.8 and a 2 bar MAP sensor?

gt7 wrote:This is what is in my car: Sbc / Edelbrock 600 carb / Edelbrock Performer dual plane intake / Edelbrock hydraulic cam (good but don't go overboard on cam) / Summit hp distributor. 350 low compression crate motor runs good on regular gas. Out-of-crate 265 hp, estimate as modded 300-320 hp. Lots of torque at any speed.

What mods are you talking about? An Edelbrock intake and carb? And that adds almost 60hp? You know to test a motor on the dyno, it needs and intake and carb. And they don't throw a iron intake and quadrajet carb on, they use average aftermarket pieces, hey, identical to what you have. Engines also need a distributor to run on a dyno, and a Summit HP isn't going to add any power. You're probably not even making 265hp, considering you're either running stock manifolds or those shitty excuse for headers.