WCF Cindered Iron Clutch issues...Anyone seen this before??

[Sinister Fiero]

Customer supplied parts. According to the customer, the clutch and pressure plate came from West Coast Fieros.

The pressure plate assy appears to have been modified. It is stamped "Borg & Beck" but you can clearly see someone has added spacers between the pressure plate cover and the diaphragm spring. I don't know if WCF's did this or someone else did. In any case, whoever did it either didn't do it correctly or used spacers of varying thicknesses. This resulted in the uneven clutch diaphragm release fingers upon installation as noted in this photo:



To make matters worse, the cindered iron clutch disc's center hub that contains the spines protrudes outward away from the flywheel in this application so far that it appears as though it will interfere with the clutch throw-out bearing when the clutch pedal is depressed.





Careful measurements using a dial calipers indicate the TO bearing can only push in on the clutch diaphragm spring's release fingers by 0.110" before the TO bearing bottoms out on the clutch disc hub. Correct me if I am wrong but the stock Fiero clutch hydraulic system will move the TO bearing more than 0.110" for a full stroke of the clutch pedal?

The clearance issue appears to be a direct result of the modification of the clutch pressure plate diaphragm spring spacing. Other clutch pressure plates I have seen have not had these spacers installed between the pressure plate cover and the spring. Apparently this "spacing" was done to increase the installed pressure of the pressure plate assy.

I called WCF and asked them specifically about the clearance issue between the TO brg and clutch disc hub and was told "there won't be any problems because we (WCF) had sold and used many of these units". I didn't even bother getting into the issue about the uneven clutch spring fingers because the guy I was talking to didn't seem receptive to my point of view nor line of questioning. I had to explain the clearance situation to him several times before he understood what I was talking about.

So the question is, has anyone ever run into this? Does WCF modify pressure plate diaphragm springs in this way?

-ryan

[Boscolingus]

I packaged and sent out a few of these years ago, and I can see why someone wanted to sell it off. It has been modified somehow. Now, not to sound stupid in anyway, but are you sure the disk isn't backwards?

[Sinister Fiero]

Now, not to sound stupid in anyway, but are you sure the disk isn't backwards?

Heh, I figured that was the first question I would be asked.

The clutch disc has "flywheel side" stamped into it on one side. That side is installed facing the flywheel. In addition, it simply won't fit if I turn it around. The "spring pack" (dampener) area of the clutch disc is raised and won't physically fit because of interference with the flywheel bolts if you tried to install it the other way.

[Shaun41178(2)]

That nubbin that sticks out from the clutch disc shouldnt' be there. That was a major prob with the clutches from Spec too. It will hit the input shaft.

I had a clutchnet clutch with that button on it on the TO bearing side. It put a small ridge in my input shaft, but the clutch still disengaged perfectly normal.

I didnt' modify the fingers though. I dont' know if that one was either by the pics posted or if its just from wear and tear?

I am running a WCF stage 3 or 4 right now. Its a kevlar kevlar, one step below the cintereed iron. Its working fine, and didnt' come with that button/nub on the input side of the clutch disc, it was smooth.

[Sinister Fiero]

I am running a WCF stage 3 or 4 right now. Its a kevlar kevlar, one step below the cintereed iron. Its working fine, and didnt' come with that button/nub on the input side of the clutch disc, it was smooth.

I looked at the other clutch discs available on the WCF website as well. The only one with that "nubbin" is the cindered iron.

No matter tho I just spoke to the customer and he authorized me to just get a SPEC Stage 2+ which I have used before and never had any issues with. Probably a good idea anyway I don't think this customer is ever going to beat the living snot out of this car which means it will primarily see street service. Not something a cindered iron clutch is well suited for.

[The Dark Side of Will]

FYI fellas... "sintered"

[Boscolingus]

That may be just as well, the sintered iron is not forgiving in anyway. There is no "ridding"the clutch in traffic, it's either "all go" or " all stop".

[yellowracer85]

Customer supplied parts. According to the customer, the clutch and pressure plate came from West Coast Fieros.

The pressure plate assy appears to have been modified. It is stamped "Borg & Beck" but you can clearly see someone has added spacers between the pressure plate cover and the diaphragm spring. I don't know if WCF's did this or someone else did. In any case, whoever did it either didn't do it correctly or used spacers of varying thicknesses. This resulted in the uneven clutch diaphragm release fingers upon installation as noted in this photo:



To make matters worse, the cindered iron clutch disc's center hub that contains the spines protrudes outward away from the flywheel in this application so far that it appears as though it will interfere with the clutch throw-out bearing when the clutch pedal is depressed.





Careful measurements using a dial calipers indicate the TO bearing can only push in on the clutch diaphragm spring's release fingers by 0.110" before the TO bearing bottoms out on the clutch disc hub. Correct me if I am wrong but the stock Fiero clutch hydraulic system will move the TO bearing more than 0.110" for a full stroke of the clutch pedal?

The clearance issue appears to be a direct result of the modification of the clutch pressure plate diaphragm spring spacing. Other clutch pressure plates I have seen have not had these spacers installed between the pressure plate cover and the spring. Apparently this "spacing" was done to increase the installed pressure of the pressure plate assy.

I called WCF and asked them specifically about the clearance issue between the TO brg and clutch disc hub and was told "there won't be any problems because we (WCF) had sold and used many of these units". I didn't even bother getting into the issue about the uneven clutch spring fingers because the guy I was talking to didn't seem receptive to my point of view nor line of questioning. I had to explain the clearance situation to him several times before he understood what I was talking about.

So the question is, has anyone ever run into this? Does WCF modify pressure plate diaphragm springs in this way?

-ryan

first off your customer isnt telling you the whole truth, we have never shipped or used anything "Borg & Beck"...we use ""McLeod"" discs and pressure plates...we dont modify any pressure plate either, i get them straight from McLeod and ship them to the customer. call us back Ryan cuz Chris wants to clear this up, and can you ask your customer if they bought it directly from us or ebay or some other 3rd party cuz Chris was wanting to know....1-310-305-4111 and ask for Chris


Craig


EDITED FOR: Chris told me he used Borg and Beck years ago before McLeod.

[Boscolingus]

cool - straight to the point

on a side note, if this was Old Europe, there would be about 20 people telling you to use a different clutch, 13 saying to use an auto, 5 saying to use a V8, and 1 saying "Nuke the gay whales for Jesus!!!"

[Dustay]

haha!! that last part was so true! :thumbleft:

[Sinister Fiero]

first off your customer isnt telling you the whole truth, we have never shipped or used anything "Borg & Beck"...we use ""McLeod"" discs and pressure plates...we dont modify any pressure plate either, i get them straight from McLeod and ship them to the customer. call us back Ryan cuz Chris wants to clear this up, and can you ask your customer if they bought it directly from us or ebay or some other 3rd party cuz Chris was wanting to know....1-310-305-4111 and ask for Chris


Craig


EDITED FOR: Chris told me he used Borg and Beck years ago before McLeod.

Craig, with all due respect I think you misunderstood what I posted about what my customer told me. To say that he is "not telling me the whole truth" is an assuming (and rude) statement on your part as far as I am concerned.

I never said the customer bought these parts directly from WCF, did I? I said that he told me this clutch setup CAME FROM WCF. Now, the part of the story I haven't mentioned yet was this customer of mine purchased this 3800 S2 SC engine along with a lot of parts from someone else who was planning on doing a swap but never got around to it. So as far as my customer is concerned, he probably was telling me the "whole truth". Perhaps the guy he bought this stuff from wasn't telling him the truth; but the fact still remains, at one time WCF did sell these same type of clutch components -- by your own words. (That's not to say this exact clutch set came from WCF, just to be clear)

But that still leaves the root question: At any point in time, did WCF's sell a borg & beck clutch pressure plate modified with spacers between the pressure plate cover and diaphragm spring like the one I have pictured above? Keep in mind these clutch parts do look like they have been sitting for a long time (could have been years).

And just to clarify; I am not on a head-hunting mission here. The customer has already agreed that we would use a Spec clutch in his application and he already commented to me that he doesn't have any receipts for this clutch so I seriously doubt it would ever be returned for a refund. All I want to find out is if it was possible that this clutch pressure plate came from and was modified by someone at WCF, or if it was modified by someone else. That's all I am trying to find out.

[Boscolingus]

Jesus Christ! How many people's hands has this clutch gone through?

...and I second that your customer or someone is NOT telling you the whole truth

[Kohburn]

most likely the person he bought it from either got it from somewhere else or bought it a long time ago and it sat around.

but it seems obvious to me that the sintered disk isn't usable, I don't feel that the uneven seating of the pressure plate fingers is enough to cause any problems but i personally wouldn't use any of it.

[Sinister Fiero]

Jesus Christ! How many people's hands has this clutch gone through?

...and I second that your customer or someone is NOT telling you the whole truth

Why is it so hard to get an answer to a simple question from people who have worked at or are currently working for WCF? It matters not if I was lied to or told the truth by my customer nor does it matter how many hands this clutch kit has gone thru because that has nothing to do with the question I asked...

DOES OR DID WCF MODIFY A BORG AND BECK PRESSURE PLATE IN THE WAY I DESCRIBED ABOVE???

We have already determined that WCF's did at one time sell a borg and beck pressure plate. We have already determined that WCF's did and does sell the sintered iron clutch disc.

[Series8217]

Ryan, I have a Spec clutch with even clutch fingers caused by the pressure plate bolts having backed off unevenly for a few miles. Even after tightening it down evenly they're still a bit uneven. It's not really a problem as long as they don't vary by more than an 8th of an inch or so. The ones in your pic look okay.
The clutch hub sticking out, on the other hand... well that's no good. Spec was doing that for awhile with Fiero clutches and causing some major headaches. That one was probably manufactured wrong.
You sure Borg & Beck doesn't do the spacers on all their "high performance" clutches to increase the spring pressure? Might also want to call and ask them..

[Sinister Fiero]

most likely the person he bought it from either got it from somewhere else or bought it a long time ago and it sat around.

but it seems obvious to me that the sintered disk isn't usable, I don't feel that the uneven seating of the pressure plate fingers is enough to cause any problems but i personally wouldn't use any of it.

The diaphragm spring release fingers' position as installed CAN MATTER. If they are uneven, then this could indicate there is uneven pressure being applied by the diaphragm spring to the clutch disc. To the avg joe this may not mean much; but to people who know a lot about drivetrain components this could indicate a serious problem which could very well result in engagement issues and possibility premature failure.

[Sinister Fiero]

Ryan, I have a Spec clutch with even clutch fingers caused by the pressure plate bolts having backed off unevenly for a few miles. Even after tightening it down evenly they're still a bit uneven. It's not really a problem as long as they don't vary by more than an 8th of an inch or so. The ones in your pic look okay.

Interesting, I have never seen this; and I have installed and replaced many clutches in my time. The only time I have seen clutch spring release fingers uneven to this degree was when I have disassembled clutches that were destroyed or missing pieces of the clutch disc.

The clutch hub sticking out, on the other hand... well that's no good. Spec was doing that for awhile with Fiero clutches and causing some major headaches. That one was probably manufactured wrong.
You sure Borg & Beck doesn't do the spacers on all their "high performance" clutches to increase the spring pressure? Might also want to call and ask them..

That's a good question. This is the first time I have noticed spacers used this way, and I have used many borg and beck products before.

But that still doesn't answer my question: did at any point WCF's modify a pressure plate in this way? Just asking. Again, I'm not on a head hunting mission here. I'm not looking to blame anyone for anything. I just want to know if something like this was ever done by WCF at any point in the past. I don't understand why it is so hard for anyone from WCF's to answer this simple question.

[Boscolingus]

It is possible that Chris may have used a different setup in the way back - my appologies for going off, just got off the .nl with dumbasses that seem to know everything about WCF 3800 headers and how they all crack and I everything I said here just came out all wrong

What I would do is speak with Chris West over the phone in person. He might even cut you a deal or simply get a disk for you that will work...

[yellowracer85]

Jesus Christ! How many people's hands has this clutch gone through?

that disc and pressure plate are lil whores....


no Ryan WCF has never modified a pressure plate, also if that disc would have came from us the the driveline spine in the center would have been machined off. anything else just ask.

[Sinister Fiero]

Jesus Christ! How many people's hands has this clutch gone through?

that disc and pressure plate are lil whores....


no Ryan WCF has never modified a pressure plate, also if that disc would have came from us the the driveline spine in the center would have been machined off. anything else just ask.

Thank you, that's all I wanted to know. CASE CLOSED.