Well, for some reason when the car is off the tach is at like 2K and when i go to turn it over get goes down to zero IIRC then jumps around a few hundred RPM. I will get a video tomarow, the battery is dead in the fiero right now. I am not used to having the battery hooked up and i left the rear decklid open for the last few days...
I checked the injectors with an ohm meter, checked the electrical plug with a "test light" just to make sure they are getting a signal and i visualy looked into the intake ports to see them spray (UIM was off and ignition was unhooked, i just wanted to SEE the fuel.) Dont have a noid light, but all 6 injectors where visualy spraying fuel...
I replaced the plugs just for shits and giggles wires are brand new, i took the coil packs in for testing (6/3 was bad, replaced) and had them check the ICM as well, everything passed.
Also pulled the plug wires off the coils to watch the spark "jump" from terminal to terminal, and oulled the plugs out of the head, grounded them and visualy seen them spark.
and there is nearly 3/4 tank of fuel less than a couple months old with some fuel treatment to keep it "good". Other than that there isnt much i can do right now. I do have a laptop, but no program or cable for the car (had it all setup for my DSM) and again... no money to buy anything.
more DOHC issues
Moderators: The Dark Side of Will, Series8217
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The Dark Side of Will
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Are you used to looking for a miss? How consistent is the spark when you check it (or injector pulses for that matter)? How long ago did you check (IE, yesterday or a couple of months ago when it would run)?
Do you know someone who has a scan tool? Is there a local car club from which you could borrow a scan tool?
You have a '93 engine, so it should be batch fire. You have fuel (do you smell it after you've been cranking?) and you have spark. The only thing that would keep the engine from running is not getting the spark at the right time, which is EXTREMELY strange in a DIS application. It's supposed to be idiot proof like that.
Do you know someone who has a scan tool? Is there a local car club from which you could borrow a scan tool?
You have a '93 engine, so it should be batch fire. You have fuel (do you smell it after you've been cranking?) and you have spark. The only thing that would keep the engine from running is not getting the spark at the right time, which is EXTREMELY strange in a DIS application. It's supposed to be idiot proof like that.
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The Dark Side of Will
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Hmm...
You say it only fires when you floor it... This puts the ECM in flood clear mode and makes it stop firing the injectors.
Have you tried disconnecting the injector harness trying get it to fire with starting fluid?
I'm wondering if this is a fuel delivery problem for which the ECM is spraying WAY too much fuel. How's your MAP sensor hookup?
You say it only fires when you floor it... This puts the ECM in flood clear mode and makes it stop firing the injectors.
Have you tried disconnecting the injector harness trying get it to fire with starting fluid?
I'm wondering if this is a fuel delivery problem for which the ECM is spraying WAY too much fuel. How's your MAP sensor hookup?
Check that hall-effect sensor to make sure it's consistant.
Borrow an older multimeter (needle) type and hook it up to the Crank sensor.
When it cranks over, you should be seeing a very rythmic pulsing except for a regular (i.e., once per revolution) twitch (which is the home signal). Even on the starter this will be pretty fast... Look for consistancy; if the needle is all over the place, your sensor isn't working properly.
Obviously, an oscilloscope would give you the most accurate picture...
Brain fart; I can't remember if you will be measuring for a swing in resistance, or voltage. I THINK it's resistance.
How this works in relation to what's happening? If the crank sensor is out, the ECM has NO idea what the rest of the motor is doing, so there's no guarantee it's pulsing fuel properly, or delivering spark appropriately.
In flood-clear, you take the injectors out of the equation, and it might randomly fire just with the fuel puddled in the intake tract...
You're at the point right now where you have to work backwards.
1) You need to verify (with a multimeter) that EVERY sensor is working properly and getting the correct reference.
Go through this list(in the ECM pinout file), and check EVERY pin that is applicable:
http://home.att.net/~subzero350/3.4TDC.zip
2) You need to verify that the engine is doing what it should mechanically.
Crank the engine a couple of times, line up to #1 compression, and check the cam flats with a straightedge. Line up to #4 compression, and check the flats.
3) If all that checks out OK, you need to verify that your ECM is working. Find someone with a RUNNING 91-93 LQ1 who'd be willing to let you drop your MEMCAL into his ecm. Even if it's wrong for the application (i.e., in an auto), it should at least START his car, even if it runs like ass and throws codes. If it runs, convince him to let you plug your whole ECM into his car.
Or go baller and buy another 91-93 LQ1 ECM and plug it in (wrong programming and everything). Even with the wrong transmission it should start and run (like shit).
Something is obviously not working properly. And you can give up like a bitch, or you can fix it. Selling it is a pretty crappy option.
Borrow an older multimeter (needle) type and hook it up to the Crank sensor.
When it cranks over, you should be seeing a very rythmic pulsing except for a regular (i.e., once per revolution) twitch (which is the home signal). Even on the starter this will be pretty fast... Look for consistancy; if the needle is all over the place, your sensor isn't working properly.
Obviously, an oscilloscope would give you the most accurate picture...
Brain fart; I can't remember if you will be measuring for a swing in resistance, or voltage. I THINK it's resistance.
How this works in relation to what's happening? If the crank sensor is out, the ECM has NO idea what the rest of the motor is doing, so there's no guarantee it's pulsing fuel properly, or delivering spark appropriately.
In flood-clear, you take the injectors out of the equation, and it might randomly fire just with the fuel puddled in the intake tract...
You're at the point right now where you have to work backwards.
1) You need to verify (with a multimeter) that EVERY sensor is working properly and getting the correct reference.
Go through this list(in the ECM pinout file), and check EVERY pin that is applicable:
http://home.att.net/~subzero350/3.4TDC.zip
2) You need to verify that the engine is doing what it should mechanically.
Crank the engine a couple of times, line up to #1 compression, and check the cam flats with a straightedge. Line up to #4 compression, and check the flats.
3) If all that checks out OK, you need to verify that your ECM is working. Find someone with a RUNNING 91-93 LQ1 who'd be willing to let you drop your MEMCAL into his ecm. Even if it's wrong for the application (i.e., in an auto), it should at least START his car, even if it runs like ass and throws codes. If it runs, convince him to let you plug your whole ECM into his car.
Or go baller and buy another 91-93 LQ1 ECM and plug it in (wrong programming and everything). Even with the wrong transmission it should start and run (like shit).
Something is obviously not working properly. And you can give up like a bitch, or you can fix it. Selling it is a pretty crappy option.
"Oh, this is too good. She thinks you're a servant... Cause you're black! This is greatest moment in my miserable life... Sooo-ey! I LOVE RACISM!"
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slow'n'steady
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OK... I am heading to the gun range, but will get a vieo up when i get back. A quick "tid bit", EVERY sensor on the car is brand new (i know they can come bad from the factory). I have a couple other ECMS i can try (all for automatics).
Then i will read through the rest when i get back and probably be completely confused :scratch: But for now im gonna go blast a few hundred through my Tec-9 and .22LR
Then i will read through the rest when i get back and probably be completely confused :scratch: But for now im gonna go blast a few hundred through my Tec-9 and .22LR
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slow'n'steady
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Well, that took MUCH longer than i was thinking. We where about done after shotting may be 200 rounds through the Tec-9 and like 100 or so through the .22LR We started walkin toward the car when a car i recognized pulled in. It was my buddies Eddie and Tom, then after them Scott, Aaron, and Cody. So we had a total of:
4) .22LR
1) Tec-9
1) Glock 9mm
1) 45 ACP
3) 12 gauge shotguns
1) some other 9mm handgun
Ended up going through all 500 roudn of my 9mm, and all 550 of my .22LR Tehn went through about 1000 rounds of his 9mm and a couple thousand rounds of his .22LR, about 250 .45 rounds and 300 or so 12 gauge rounds. Worst part... we ALL forgot hearing protection so we are all pretty deaf (sp?) After we ran out of ammo, we started lookin around for some that didnt fire (from jams or something) and some that others left behind. Ended up finding like 30 or so 9mm, about 10 .45, and a few hand fulls of .22LR (they spilt a box a couple days ago and didnt bother pickin 'em up)
Best part was when we loaded every gun to it fullest and just completely unloaded them all at once. Scott put it on his phone for a ring tone... It was pretty damn insane. my Tec-9 holds 34, he had 3 clips fo rhis 9mm (about 80 all together) 25 in 3 of the .22s and 10 in the other, the 8 in one shotgun and six in the other 2, and lastly 40 rounds or so in the .45 (two clips) The people from the other range (beside us) cam over and where pretty excited
4) .22LR
1) Tec-9
1) Glock 9mm
1) 45 ACP
3) 12 gauge shotguns
1) some other 9mm handgun
Ended up going through all 500 roudn of my 9mm, and all 550 of my .22LR Tehn went through about 1000 rounds of his 9mm and a couple thousand rounds of his .22LR, about 250 .45 rounds and 300 or so 12 gauge rounds. Worst part... we ALL forgot hearing protection so we are all pretty deaf (sp?) After we ran out of ammo, we started lookin around for some that didnt fire (from jams or something) and some that others left behind. Ended up finding like 30 or so 9mm, about 10 .45, and a few hand fulls of .22LR (they spilt a box a couple days ago and didnt bother pickin 'em up)
Best part was when we loaded every gun to it fullest and just completely unloaded them all at once. Scott put it on his phone for a ring tone... It was pretty damn insane. my Tec-9 holds 34, he had 3 clips fo rhis 9mm (about 80 all together) 25 in 3 of the .22s and 10 in the other, the 8 in one shotgun and six in the other 2, and lastly 40 rounds or so in the .45 (two clips) The people from the other range (beside us) cam over and where pretty excited
Last edited by slow'n'steady on Mon May 28, 2007 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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slow'n'steady
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It's a little tinny on the sound....
The tach looks strange at 2000rpm... but the needle moves around like I'd expect it to...
Do like Will said; disconnect the injectors, and see if it'll fire with some starting fluid in the intake...
Don't go nuts with it or you can seriously damage something. Just a quick 1/2s squirt, and keep the throttle cracked open (1/4 should do it) in case it decides to backfire.
I just had a thought; You didn't ever pull the injector harness from the fuel rail, did you? If you attached it backwards, you'll flood so fast it won't even be funny, as the injectors would be spraying at a closed intake valve.
The tach looks strange at 2000rpm... but the needle moves around like I'd expect it to...
Do like Will said; disconnect the injectors, and see if it'll fire with some starting fluid in the intake...
Don't go nuts with it or you can seriously damage something. Just a quick 1/2s squirt, and keep the throttle cracked open (1/4 should do it) in case it decides to backfire.
I just had a thought; You didn't ever pull the injector harness from the fuel rail, did you? If you attached it backwards, you'll flood so fast it won't even be funny, as the injectors would be spraying at a closed intake valve.
"Oh, this is too good. She thinks you're a servant... Cause you're black! This is greatest moment in my miserable life... Sooo-ey! I LOVE RACISM!"
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slow'n'steady
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Yes, the injectors harness has been removed a few times and it wasnt on when i got it so i just kinda put it on there however it would fit... I asked about that a while back but was told it wouldnt matter since it is SFI. Dont remember if that was someone here or over on .nl
Should I flip the harness and give it a try?
Should I flip the harness and give it a try?
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slow'n'steady
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The Dark Side of Will
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I have trouble visualizing pistons moving up and down with respect to each other, but it seemed to me that if they were flipped, the injectors would be firing at cylinders that would need to move through at least one full rotation before opening. I'll take Will's word over mine anyday.
I apologize for the wild goose chase.
Have you tried the starting fluid, or spare ECM yet?
A couple other things to check:
-Fuel pressure; I know you're getting fuel, but make sure it isn't dribbling out of the injectors as soon as you touch the key because the regulator is shot and it's pounding out 10,000,000psi on the rail
-Did we mention Cam timing yet? What's a dead horse for if not beating?
-Hook up a timing light to #1 plug wire, mark TDC on the HB. pulley, and make sure the fucker is firing at the right time, and that it fires EVERY time. Repeat with other plug-wires (might need to get creative in figuring out where else to mark for the other cyls.
-There are fuel injector testing lights available for cheap at a store up here called "Princess Auto" which clip into the fuel rail. Verify that your injectors are firing evenly, and not just going off at random.
I apologize for the wild goose chase.
Have you tried the starting fluid, or spare ECM yet?
A couple other things to check:
-Fuel pressure; I know you're getting fuel, but make sure it isn't dribbling out of the injectors as soon as you touch the key because the regulator is shot and it's pounding out 10,000,000psi on the rail
-Did we mention Cam timing yet? What's a dead horse for if not beating?
-Hook up a timing light to #1 plug wire, mark TDC on the HB. pulley, and make sure the fucker is firing at the right time, and that it fires EVERY time. Repeat with other plug-wires (might need to get creative in figuring out where else to mark for the other cyls.
-There are fuel injector testing lights available for cheap at a store up here called "Princess Auto" which clip into the fuel rail. Verify that your injectors are firing evenly, and not just going off at random.
"Oh, this is too good. She thinks you're a servant... Cause you're black! This is greatest moment in my miserable life... Sooo-ey! I LOVE RACISM!"
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The Dark Side of Will
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slow'n'steady
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front cover was never off. I got it as a "short block w/heads" then got the cam carriers, intakes exhaust etc... in a box.
I am going to head up to teh store a little later for a fuel pressure tester and some starting fluid. I have to wait for me ebay auction to end so i have money : )
2 hours left... you know you need it for your collection :thumbleft:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... B:AAQ:US:1
I am going to head up to teh store a little later for a fuel pressure tester and some starting fluid. I have to wait for me ebay auction to end so i have money : )
2 hours left... you know you need it for your collection :thumbleft:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... B:AAQ:US:1
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slow'n'steady
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slow'n'steady
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uhm... gotta question that will make me look 100% retarded but i have gotta ask...
On the fiero, the Fuel FEED line is 3/4" and the return line is 5/16" however on the DOHC fuel rail, the fuel pressure regulator side is a 5/16" and the return line is 3/4" WTF?
I say this because i had the feed line (bigger hose) going to the bigger line on the fuel rail (apparently not the side with the fuel regulator) so DID U HAVE IT HOOKED UP BACKWARDS? I was told by a couple people at Autozone and Advance auto that it was backwards, so i switched the lines and now it wont even try to start, but it did start and "run" when the lines where "backwards" :scratch:
On the fiero, the Fuel FEED line is 3/4" and the return line is 5/16" however on the DOHC fuel rail, the fuel pressure regulator side is a 5/16" and the return line is 3/4" WTF?
I say this because i had the feed line (bigger hose) going to the bigger line on the fuel rail (apparently not the side with the fuel regulator) so DID U HAVE IT HOOKED UP BACKWARDS? I was told by a couple people at Autozone and Advance auto that it was backwards, so i switched the lines and now it wont even try to start, but it did start and "run" when the lines where "backwards" :scratch:
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Series8217
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slow'n'steady
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yeah... 3/8" is what i meant
now heres the thing. I was told that the fuel pressure regulator is the side you wanna connect the 3/8" feed line to, HOWEVER the fuel pressre regulator side is a 5/16" hard line coming off of the fuel rail.
I pulled both line just to make sure i didnt mix something up under the car, and i didnt, it was correct. 3/8 going through the filter (new) is the feed line. obviously the 5/16 is the return so why is it backwards on the fuel rail... or for some reason do i connect the return line to the pressure reg.???
hopefuly i explained that halfway decent...
Now, i had it "backwards" i guess. ON THE FUEL RAIL: The return line (side without the FPR) is a 3/8" and the side with the FPR is a 5/16". THE ACTUAL FUEL LINES: the feed line is a 3/8" and the return is a 5/16".
When i had the 5/16 going to the 5/16 and the 3/8 going to the 3/8 it would do the whole start and run thing (even though it was backwards?)
but now that it is "correct" it wont do shit...
now heres the thing. I was told that the fuel pressure regulator is the side you wanna connect the 3/8" feed line to, HOWEVER the fuel pressre regulator side is a 5/16" hard line coming off of the fuel rail.
I pulled both line just to make sure i didnt mix something up under the car, and i didnt, it was correct. 3/8 going through the filter (new) is the feed line. obviously the 5/16 is the return so why is it backwards on the fuel rail... or for some reason do i connect the return line to the pressure reg.???
hopefuly i explained that halfway decent...
Now, i had it "backwards" i guess. ON THE FUEL RAIL: The return line (side without the FPR) is a 3/8" and the side with the FPR is a 5/16". THE ACTUAL FUEL LINES: the feed line is a 3/8" and the return is a 5/16".
When i had the 5/16 going to the 5/16 and the 3/8 going to the 3/8 it would do the whole start and run thing (even though it was backwards?)
but now that it is "correct" it wont do shit...