The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Real tech discussion on design, fabrication, testing, development of custom or adapted parts for Pontiac Fieros. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

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The Dark Side of Will
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Soo... What's been going on with the build?

I have the new rings, but need to get the pistons shipped for re-grooving the top groove. I've had a couple heavy weeks at work and haven't gotten that done yet.
I did this, however:

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Mmmmm... PPPC titanium piston pins @ 78 grams. They're DLC coated to avoid problems with titanium galling, and also have steel end caps to avoid that same problem where they touch the locks.
I double checked the weight of all the parts, and of course found that the idiot shop assistant had not added the weight of the top ring into the recip component of the bobweight. Sigh. Apparently he didn't look at what he was weighing either, or he would have noticed that the top rings were NOT THERE. I can get that my failure to remove the steel pins was a failure to idiot proof what I wanted to get done... But for someone to weigh an incomplete assembly and not actually check off all the pieces that are supposed to be there, I have a much tougher time assigning that to anything but negligence.
The top ring is 9.7g; since there are two of them per throw at a 50% recip factor, the bobweight is off 9.7g.

I started this thread on Speed-Talk: https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewto ... 15&t=62405
The collective opinion of builders there being that 10 g is a tiny effect and I probably won't notice.

Also, since the rings came in between 0.0578 and 0.0580, I started this thread about top ring side clearance: https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewto ... 15&t=62408
Consensus seems to be that side clearance can be tighter since my rings are gas ported. The discussion of back clearance is interesting too. I need to measure my rings to give Rebco their actual radial dimensions instead of the radial dimension of the prior set... THEN I'll be able to send the pistons off

I'm at drill this weekend, so no movement on that until Monday.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

ALSO:

It may not be super obvious what this is:

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But it's a template to let me verify that I have the dimensions of the Y2K+ manifold correct, in order to modify the early heads to accept it.

The first photo is verifying it fits the manifold. The next photo is of the template on a pair of roller cam (Y2K+) heads verifying that I have that bolt pattern right.

The third photo is with the right head a roller cam head and the left head a flat tappet head. Three of the holes are close enough with only the end holes needing to be updated. You can see where the old intake flange sticks out from under the template. This is the material that needs to be trimmed off before the manifold will fit. Of course I also need to counterbore, drill & tap the mounting holes for the new manifold, but I have those close enough.
It was interesting to find that the template just clears a feature on the block when used with the roller cam heads, but when used with the flat tappet heads it doesn't clear the feature. That means the intake flanges on the roller cam heads are ~1/4" higher than the ones on the flat tappet heads.

I also realized I didn't snag a photo the template with both flat tappet heads.

I'm not going to machine using the template. I just had the template made as an easy way to verify that I have all the dimensions involved basically right. I'll make a machining drawing and use the DRO on a mill to actually cut the flanges.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by ericjon262 »

I'm digging all the progress! I saw an ad for the as ported piston rings, neat idea, I wonder how well they perform? The intake jig was a neat idea, nice to be able to do a simple theory to practice like that.
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Been a little while since I posted, so this'll be a longer summary.

Following up on checking the intake manifold template, I put my mockup block with actual cylinder heads on a mill and went to town. I eyeballed it square, then used a gauge pin in the end holes on the manifold bolt patterns to properly square it up in the mill.

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There are two steps that have to happen to modify the heads for the later manifold. The first is modifying the flanges so the manifold will drop in place. The second is drilling the alternate mounting holes so the manifold will bolt down. I had all that figured out in the template and had to do it all in this one setup on the mill. The width of the space in which work was to be done was winder than the Y-axis travel of the mill table, so I had to slide the head in/out to get everything. Because of that I had to do everything on the right bank first, then everything on the left bank.

In starting on the hole pattern, one of the first things that becomes obvious is that the flywheel end intake ports are over top of water jacket passages out of the heads to the waterpump. This means you can't drill indiscriminately into/through things.

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This is a photo into that port. The bulge down from the top is the boss for the original manifold bolt hole.
While cogitating on how to deal with that, I went ahead and scalloped the flanges.

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Of course, once I put the effort into scalloping the flanges, it became fairly obvious that I should have just buzzed down the entire row instead of carefully sculpting them.

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Moving on to the manifold pattern, I was able to drill most of the holes uneventfully. Only two needed to be counterbored because they ended up on the edge of a sloped surface.

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I had to very carefully control the depth of the one over top of the water jacket passage, but there's enough of a boss behind the original boss that I was able to drill a usefully deep, although depth-limited hole at that location.
Where there aren't cooling jackets under the flanges, there's actually free space. Most of the holes drilled straight through, which would make tapping them easy. I didn't tap them this time around, though. One of the holes ended up with a surface below the flange halfway through the diameter of the hole. The drill walked and wobbled the hole before I realized it. I was very careful about drilling the other hole affected by this issue after that.

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Mods completed:

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Even with all of that work, the manifold doesn't quite sit down on the intake flanges.
As this point I graduated from planned/engineered mods to the fit/futz cycle.
I had to do some extra whittling... which I was fine with doing since this is my mockup block.

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After these mods, the manifold finally sat on the intake flanges without running into anything. Unfortunately I flaked on grabbing a photo.
As I believe I noted in playing with the template, one of the things GM did when they redesigned the heads and intake for MY2000 was to raise the port flanges by 1/4-3/8". That means the later manifold sits lower in the V on the early heads than it did on the late heads. That's where the block interference came from. After I was able to get the manifold to have clearance everywhere and sit down on the flanges, I tried to fit check with the starter.

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Note the gap between the manifold and the intake flanges.
Of course, GM changed a LOT of things in the intake port and flange configuration on the cylinder heads when they went to the later manifold.
Ooops. Not really anything reasonable to do about that. Back to the drawing board. At least now I understand what needs to be done for this, and I've discovered one more way that won't work. Look out, Edison.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I won't do it this time, but have put a bit of thought into using the VVT RWD heads. The RWD heads have the same intake ports as the FWD roller cam heads, which means better than the '93-'99 heads. However, while the FWD roller cam heads have worse exhaust ports than the '93-'99 heads, the RWD heads have BETTER exhaust ports and are well balanced for N/A power production.

The bore center, head bolt pattern and timing drive passages are the same, so the head would literally bolt up.
However, the RWD heads have an extra oil drainback passage at the flywheel end, owing to them being used longitudinally. That should be a huge issue... just screw in a pipe plug.
Also, the coolant outlets are at the FRONT of the heads just above the engine's front cover. I'd have to make a coolant manifold to pick them up, then pipe the coolant externally back to the rear of the engine, and fab a water manifold from scratch to deal with it all.

However, there's been changes to where the coolant and oil flow through the deck surface just behind the timing drive. I'm not sure if that renders the RWD heads on FWD block idea completely unworkable or not. I'll have to snag a RWD head gasket and lay it on my mockup block to see.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by ericjon262 »

well, since you already have the flange pattern drawn out, adding the ports in and making adapter plates shouldn't be too hard.
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

My actual block is still at the machine shop. They tried to have it done by Christmas, but the operator for one of the machines got sick. He didn't say if it was COVID or not. Looks like it'll probably be ready the week of the 4th, though.

After I did the mods shown above, I dropped the heads off with the Cerakote guy. I need to figure something out with him, as he was saying he'd need a warm day to do the work. Maybe I just need to haul a space heater over there.

I ordered the Cometic head gaskets. They have a 6 week (!) lead time right now... Ooops.

I started actually discussing my clutch application with PTT. They also provided the clutch for Wcapman's Northstar, but there are some key differences between our two swaps such that his setup won't bolt into my car. I had my flywheel packaged for a 2x0.250" configuration with 2 organic disks 0.250" thick. PTT recommended their cerametallic friction material, even for a street car. He said that PTT's material has a lower coefficient of friction than others, but they clamp it harder, resulting in a clutch that's easier to modulate. Their blank flywheel is 0.840" thick, but will work in the Getrag with a 2x0.105 clutch, which has the cerametallic lining. Their flywheel is under 5#, but is just the button, so once I add flex plate and ring gear it will probably be around 8#. The one I made is 11#, so this will be lighter.

Also, the engineer didn't like that the material under the bolt heads in my flywheel was only 0.270 thick in something other than 4140. I think it's A36 structural steel. My flywheel has the bolt holes down in individual counterbores, so the material around each bolt is thicker. Their flywheel has a 0.270 flange without any counterbores. Given these differences, I'm not so sure that his concerns are valid, but don't fuck around with flywheels.

Anyway, it'll be nice to be able to buy something and assemble it rather than having to make something every time I turn around.

https://powertraintech.com/collections/ ... wheel-7-25

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

ericjon262 wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:33 pm well, since you already have the flange pattern drawn out, adding the ports in and making adapter plates shouldn't be too hard.
That's a possibility as well as long as I can keep the ports aligned correctly.
The manifold that came on the '06 engine that I disassembled has some fire damage on the top, so it's the perfect candidate to run through a band saw to open it up so that I can look at the port interface with the manifold in place and figure out what would work.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by ericjon262 »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:05 pm
ericjon262 wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:33 pm well, since you already have the flange pattern drawn out, adding the ports in and making adapter plates shouldn't be too hard.
That's a possibility as well as long as I can keep the ports aligned correctly.
The manifold that came on the '06 engine that I disassembled has some fire damage on the top, so it's the perfect candidate to run through a band saw to open it up so that I can look at the port interface with the manifold in place and figure out what would work.
yeah, 1/4" isn't much room for any transitions. I highly doubt it, but any smaller starters available? or can you change the clocking of the stock starter to work?
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

ericjon262 wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:18 pm
yeah, 1/4" isn't much room for any transitions. I highly doubt it, but any smaller starters available? or can you change the clocking of the stock starter to work?
That's why I need to cut up the manifold so I can look and see what's going on... maybe it needs 1/2" for transition. Who am I kidding? I'm not that lucky.

The Northstar starter is already a light weight gear reduction unit. It has, AFAIK, fairly unique mounting, in that the bore in the block locates it, then it has two axial bolts securing it in place.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I've mentioned before that I had a battery boil over event.
A career body guy friend of my dad's said I need to neutralize the acid with a baking soda solution before any kind of paint will stick long term.

So I started looking up what strength solution I needed.

Most advice seems to be of this variety:
https://www.wowwoodys.com/how-to-clean- ... nnections/

This isn't super useful if the acid has been sprayed on a vertical or even underhung surface like a Fiero fierwall and battery tray.

This page says 3:1 baking soda to water to make a paste:
https://itstillruns.com/neutralize-batt ... 89182.html

Again, not super useful for covering a large area

This page recommends 1 tbsp baking sode per cup of water for smaller jobs... that seems like a weaker solution than below, but I'm not sure how many tbsps are in a lb.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech ... tery-acid/


Useful advice: OSHA recommends 1 pound of baking soda for one gallon of water to clean up industrial battery (e.g. electric lift trucks) spills.

http://www.dcpower.cc/neutralize-battery-acid-spill.php

And I guess if you're really really serious about it, get this stuff:
https://northamericanbio.com/product/na ... utralizer/

ETA: ...buuuuuut since there's oil residue and grime in the area as well, I think I will try the NAB battery cleaner.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by Honest Don »

The mix ratio isn’t super fussy to get the job done. When I clean my batteries and trays, I’ll mix it kind of thin and just use more total volume.

I usually do it once or twice a year.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I know the mix isn't critical... it's just a matter of getting enough Sodium ions in contact with enough Chlorine ions (and really enough hydroxyl ions in contact with enough hydrogen ions) to get down to bidness.
I was just looking for some guardrails for what is enough and what's more than necessary.

I also do have a soft spot in my heart for "the right way" that makes the job easy, simple and successful.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Just had a minor flash of almost brilliance. Once I get the clutch built up, I should fit check my Getrag HTOB bellhousing, which is in-line for my 3.94 transmission build.

I also have a Metric bellhousing F23... I should probably pop the bellhousing off so that I can fit check and measure that one as well.
Hurry up and grab a 2007 Metric bellhousing F40?
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by Honest Don »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:20 am I know the mix isn't critical... it's just a matter of getting enough Sodium ions in contact with enough Chlorine ions (and really enough hydroxyl ions in contact with enough hydrogen ions) to get down to bidness.
I was just looking for some guardrails for what is enough and what's more than necessary.

I also do have a soft spot in my heart for "the right way" that makes the job easy, simple and successful.
What I'm saying is that you can mix it thin enough to spray and just use more total solution to get it neutralized. A 3:1 paste doesn't move through a sprayer nozzle very well.

Kind of like going to Minnesota and accidentally buying "3.2" beer. It works, but takes more.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Right, I get it... I was thinking just wipe everything down out of a couple of buckets. I don't have a Wagner power painter or anything like that.

But since I ordered the NAB stuff, it looks like I can just spray on with a squirt bottle until it doesn't change color, then wipe it off.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Looks like I won't get the block back until next week.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:21 am Looks like I won't get the block back until next week.
Ditto today.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by Honest Don »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:08 am
The Dark Side of Will wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:21 am Looks like I won't get the block back until next week.
Ditto today.
https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live ... eard/n9756
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I used the NAB neutralizer yesterday, and sponged the firewall down, then just threw a bucket of water at it and left it overnight to dry.

Today I got the tits from the spot weld removal flappered down on both the firewall and hinge box, then wire brushed the firewall & sheet metal where it was rusty from the acid. I also bead blasted the hinge box. Sprayed on some 3M Weld-Thru II (05917) on both the firewall and the hinge box.
There's a little more shaping/flattening left to do to overcome the trauma of removal on both sides of the interface, but I should be able to get that done tomorrow, then get it set up to be welded this week.

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I knocked all the loose rust off the areas that weren't going to get welded and will hit those with POR-15 (again). POR says they know what permanent means, but they don't know what battery acid is, apparently.

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