Time to vent.... and I'm not talking Coors Beer

[Shaun41178(2)]

Hey eb I love your link you posted.

Quick question. Are you in a labor union? If not, then how does what obama did positively affect you? IT DOESN'T!!

Did you know labor unions only make up about 14% of the working force in this country? Labor unions are a minority in this country. Not to mention florida is a right to work state. Who do you work for? I am going to call them and tell them to fire you so you don't have to pay taxes anymore. I would hate for you to complain and shit about paying taxes and taking advantage of govt programs everyday.

[EBSB52]

!

if you don't like paying taxes then quit your job. Its that simple.

That's a ridicluous argument, one that could be used to revoke all worker's rights. Seriously, think about it, all you need is some low-life utterring shit about it not being your right to work, receive medical attention, etc and if enough or the right people hear it, they elect garbage like teh one we just had who damaged workers severely. We are in the 21st century, we all do need to work and have fair rules by which to do so. WHat is fair? Ask the party withteh Swastika and they say that things like teh Ergonomics Bill is wastefull, overtime protections are wastefull and ensuring all people having some form of healthcare for their families is a luxury, not a right. Of course those politicians and their pathetic electorate are sitting the sidelines watching the real politicians, as people have apparently had enough of corporation protections and millionaire protections over the rights of those ever so greedy poor people. Your rhetoric is antiqauted at best, do yourself and your party a favor by retooling it or you won't see your boys in office for quite a while.

if you don't like paying taxes then quit your job. Its that simple. No work means you don't pay any taxes.

You're intentionally missing the point, idiot. I want to pay my share of the taxes, I'm current and always have been. I just don't want to pay my employer's taxes and as you stated, contarctors usually make 2-3 times the wage of a regular employee, these guys pay regular wage and then bill me for their taxes. Like works off norms and if you can skew the norms enough then you change the landscape of an entire culture. Where did I say I don't want to pay taxes?

I am not going to pay your medical bills though even though you think I should.

This is the typical lame-ass argument I often hear. Show me where the legislative process directly intersects where taxes are established or appropriated and designated for major issues. There might be a bond measure to pay for a dome or a certain structure, freeway, etc, but for military and social services these itmes are not legislated together. IOW's, they legislate the taxes they feel they can collect and spend whatever they feel like collecting. The bailouts, did our taxes rise as a result? No, they tack it onto the debt and it never gets paid. The stimulus, will it raise our taxes? No, they are talking about lowering taxes while they spend the stimulus. So your point is void even though you probably don't have the character to disprove me or concede.

And if you think this is trash america then move to western europe where everything is hunky dorey.

I've already stated I want to.

You won't move though because you won't have anyone to blame for the state of your bad health and anything else that you feel is wrong with your life.

I'm actually in pretty good health rigjht now, thank you.

Move to europe or canada. I DARE YOU

Canada is too cold, but there are other countries I'd love to move to. Ay 46, will I get the chance? As time goes by it diminishes, but who knows.

[EBSB52]

Hey eb I love your link you posted.

.

Quick question. Are you in a labor union?

If I was, would I be paid as a contractor? Let's put 2 and 2 together.

If not, then how does what obama did positively affect you? IT DOESN'T!!

Really? Here's the first element:

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/2009f ... eo.rel.pdf

It states that gov contractors will comply with labor laws or be penalized, perhaps lose their contract. It states that employers will notify workers of their right to organine, not just those that are already organized? Really Shaun, can you not fucking read?

1) When the Federal Government contracts for goods or services, it has a proprietary interest in ensuring that those contracts will be performed by contractors whose work will not be interrupted by labor unrest. The attainment of industrial peace is most easily achieved and workers' productivity is enhanced when workers are well informed of their rights under Federal labor laws, including the National Labor Relations Act (Act), 29 U.S.C. 151 et seq.


2) As the Act recognizes, "encouraging the practice and procedure of collective bargaining and . . . protecting the exercise by workers of full freedom of association, self-organization, and designation of representatives of their own choosing, for the purpose of negotiating the terms and conditions of their employment or other mutual aid or protection" will "eliminate the causes of certain substantial obstructions to the free flow of commerce" and "mitigate and eliminate these obstructions when they have occurred." 29 U.S.C. 151.

3) Relying on contractors whose employees are informed of such rights under Federal labor laws facilitates the efficient and economical completion of the Federal Government's contracts.


I broke it down into elements, first, this applies to gov contractors, Boeing, etc. Second, notification of teh right to collectively bargain. Third, this will ensure the expeditious completion of gov projects. Real easy, just read; it applies to government contactors whether they are organozed or not.


http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/2009e ... eo.rel.pdf

shall treat as unallowable the costs of any activities undertaken to persuade employees -- whether employees of the recipient of the Federal disbursements or of any other entity -- to exercise or not to exercise, or concerning the manner of exercising, the right to organize and bargain collectively through representatives of the employees' own choosing. Such unallowable costs shall be excluded from any billing, claim, proposal, or disbursement applicable to any such Federal Government contract.


This states that the costs of this information to employees shall not be passed on to the government by way of billing.


http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/2009n ... al.rel.pdf


This last one states that if the gov has a contract for services, that contract expires, the contractor comes in and the existing employees have first shot at the new jobs. This is done for the interest of expediency of contract.


Really Shaun, is this shit difficult to read and comprehend?

Did you know labor unions only make up about 14% of the working force in this country? Labor unions are a minority in this country.

Really? Ironically African-Americans do to, I say fuck em both, now can I have my redneck Republican membership? How about the disabled, I bet they are less than 14%, we can summarily shitcan them too. Hey, change your moniker to a swastika with Hitler as your hero, he was for the perfect society too. What does teh 14% figure have to do with shit? The right to organize is universal, regardless of number or strength of unionization. Your arguments get more pathetic as you drag on.

Also, union membership is on the rise: http://www.boston.com/business/articles ... 0_in_mass/

Labor unions in Massachusetts added nearly 80,000 members last year and significantly increased the share of workers they represent, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Union membership grew to 458,000, or about 15.7 percent of workers in 2008, up from 379,000, or about 13.2 percent, in 2007. Nationally, union membership rose to 12.4 percent of workers from 12. 1 percent in 2007.

Not to mention florida is a right to work state.

That means?????????????? Nothing, moron. Right to work merely means you can't be compelled to join a union in order to work for an employer. See, unions are the people, not the union office. When a state has an abundance of cowards wanting to call employers to tell, like you, then it implodes from a worker's rights perspective. When a state has union members that are tough and strong, they realize rights.

Who do you work for? I am going to call them and tell them to fire you so you don't have to pay taxes anymore.

Still too pathetic to honestly portray what I wrote? I wrote that I want to pay taxes, not my employers taxes via being paid a regular employees wages, but as a contractor so I pay his taxes too. Find where I wrote differently.

I would hate for you to complain and shit about paying taxes and taking advantage of govt programs everyday

I have no issue paying taxes, my fair share as per current laws. I don't take advantage of any gov programs at the moment, haven't for some time and then it was unemployment insurance at best. I've never been section 8 or received gov healthcare.

See if you can stick to being honest.

[EBSB52]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work

Look at teh graphic of right to work states. Lovely group, aren't they. Basically the bible belt, red state garbage.

[EBSB52]

As a follow-up, Shaun says that unions are represent only 14% of all workers, this is my point; unionization has been on teh decline, esp in the private sector, since 1983, shortly before fascist Ronnie started driving them out. The theme to my thread is the declination of worker's rights, so Shean is making my point; worker's rights decline as fascist Republicans get into office and drive out unions. Worker's rights go as unionization goes, worker's right decline as Republicans are in office and Congress for extended periods. Glad we agree, Shean.

UPDATE: Union membership had been steadily declining in the US since 1983. In 2007, the labor department reported the first increase in union memberships in 25 years and the largest increase since 1979. Sorry fascist Shaun, they're comming back as rights have hit a low. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_unio ... ted_States

[Shaun41178(2)]

wikipedia is never wrong. If its on the internet it must be true.

Start a contractors union Eb. That will solve all your problems.

[EBSB52]

wikipedia is never wrong. If its on the internet it must be true.

Start a contractors union Eb. That will solve all your problems.

I could post all kinds of other sources that say the same thing, but as a good little neo-con, you wouldn't intelligently address it, so why waste the time. Perhaps you can show the character to correct what Wiki stated.

I don't need to start a union, I just need to keep trash likethe shit you elect, out of office so we can reestablish a fair playing field with which to excercize our legally granted right to organize a union w/o fear of being fired. So sorry for you the swastikas are a little less shiny today than they were a week ago. Don't worry, stupid fuck America will forget what a mess you and your electorate made for us and they will bring back your Nazis.

[p8ntman442]

collectivly bargaining------- means your hard work gets lumped in with the 4 iditos you work side by side with for an average of 1-2% pay increase/year.

My raise was 7% this year. I have excellent bennefits.

[EBSB52]

collectivly bargaining------- means your hard work gets lumped in with the 4 iditos you work side by side with for an average of 1-2% pay increase/year.

My raise was 7% this year. I have excellent bennefits.

There are certainly positives and negatives to it, but what irks me is the constriction of the right to organize by Reagan and Bush as per long-standing federal law. You have seniorityu rights protected as well so when you are a 30-year pro in your field, they can't train someone else to do your job and oust you to pay them 30% of your salary. Unions certainly carry fat and that's a bad thing, but the right to assemble and strike if neccessary has to be protected or we're fucked. I also support an employer's right to lock the doors or to get replacement workers (scabs) to try to survive w/o teh union. I'm not mandating everywhere be organized, just that we've really become Nazi when we threaten to void contracts if workers strike, the employee's only device other than a sit down I guess, which is the same thing.

I tried to organize a union at a workplace, don't need to say where, and I had my tires slashed by management. I was one of the primary and most vocally aggressive organizers and the only real articulate organizers, which pissed them off. I don't blame management, I blame the cowards who supposedly were behind me. I would never do that again. In the US, in typical for scabs to come in at way > union pay, and help management overthrow a union, then be offered < the employees they helped oust. I wonder if tehy bitch about pay/benefits? How ironic if they did.

But good point, p8ntman442, and unions aren't for everyone, free trade is supposed to be, but that's more flowery BS when we have a Republican in office. To match the opposite of what Reagan/Bush did, Obama would have to grossly restrict the rights of major corporations as they fought to keep unions out, such as disallow a union card collecting campaign and go right to a private vote, which he isn't. He's just trying to ensure teh current rules are followed.

[Sinister Fiero]

Hey I got an idea... Lets start a Union on this forum and do some collective bargaining of our own. Lets vote on issues; hell lets vote to ban people. BUT WAIT... That's already happened on a Fiero forum. You can no longer have a voice on that particular forum if it goes against the "status quo"; otherwise you will be voted off and banned!

How would you like that, EB? How would you like it if everybody on this forum joined their own Union and the majority voted to silence your voice??? I'm willing to bet the only instances where you want a Union is when it will BENEFIT YOU. If it doesn't work for you, then you won't want it.

Unions were originally created to give a voice to, and help protect the little guy. Back in the day they forced big companies using shady business practices to implement needed safety standards that were lacking at the time. Those were the good times. Today, most (not all) unions are used for nothing more than to extort money from companies and workers alike; and to act as non-official campaigning arms for the democrat party. Union members who are republicans have little say in where their union dues get spent when it comes to politics. It's not about fairness anymore. It's about money and power. The people at the top (be it at the top of a big company or a big union) could give a rat's ass about the lowly worker. Union reps will throw their own people under the bus if it will save their jobs. Translation = they will eat their own. Get it yet?

The only person you can depend on in this world is yourself. If you put your trust in somebody or something else (such as a union or government), you WILL be disappointed. To those people, you are just a number, if that. YOU need to rely on yourself to make it in this world. Nobody is going to do it for you -- without a cost. And I am not willing to give up my freedoms to ANYONE just to get a free meal. I'll farm my own damn fruits and vegetables and raise my own livestock if I have to. Just get off my back so I can work for that myself.

[Shaun41178(2)]

eb doesn't want to do any work himself. He wants everyone to do it for him, and he still wants everyone to pay for his medical insurance.

[The Dark Side of Will]

UPDATE: Union membership had been steadily declining in the US since 1983. In 2007, the labor department reported the first increase in union memberships in 25 years and the largest increase since 1979. Sorry fascist Shaun, they're comming back as rights have hit a low. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_unio ... ted_States

Yes, please quote this website.

American union membership in the private sector has in recent years fallen under 9% — levels not seen since 1932. Workers seem uninterested in joining, and strike activity has almost faded away. The labor force in unionized automobile and steel plants, for example, has fallen dramatically. In another example, Construction trades now only represent approximately 14% of the labor market. The inability to prevent non-union companies from taking significant market share has undercut union membership.[citation needed]

The truth is that unions are dinosaurs. Most of their essential functions have been taken over by government: minimum wage, working hours, working conditions, etc. Union membership is down because unions just don't have a good value proposition for most workers. They've also managed to accumulate a reputation for being lazy, combative and mismanaged; much like the domestic auto industry has accumulated a reputation for poor quality, poor fuel economy and mismanagement.

Good management keeps the workforce happy. Only bad management requires unions to oppose it. Poorly managed companies go out of business (well... until recently).

[p8ntman442]

Poorly managed companies go out of business

No we call those defense contractors.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Poorly managed companies go out of business

No we call those defense contractors.

(well... until recently).

Don't forget the rest of that quote.

If you're trying to poke fun at my employment, as you have in the past, understand that my employer's largest business unit operates in the commercial arena.

And yes, the DOD, and government in general, acquisitions process if FUBAR and seldom represents a good value proposition for taxpayers.

[p8ntman442]

Go find where I poked fun at your job. I was refering to my last job working as a supervisor for 19 babies err. union employees. Id take maybee 5 to work for me any day, the rest were useless. That was for one of the big DOD contractors.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Go find where I poked fun at your job. I was refering to my last job working as a supervisor for 19 babies err. union employees. Id take maybee 5 to work for me any day, the rest were useless. That was for one of the big DOD contractors.

WOOPS... Sorry. I misread you. For some reason I thought that post was EBS instead of you.

I'll blame unfamiliarity with the new forum scheme to reduce my loss of cool points.

[p8ntman442]

shit, you were quote deleting posts long enough to have no cool points left.

[EBSB52]

.

Hey I got an idea... Lets start a Union on this forum and do some collective bargaining of our own. Lets vote on issues; hell lets vote to ban people. BUT WAIT... That's already happened on a Fiero forum. You can no longer have a voice on that particular forum if it goes against the "status quo"; otherwise you will be voted off and banned!

To try to analogize an internet posting board and a place of employment where a family draws it's lifeblood is idiotic. It doesn't work, not even in an abstract sense. And to call P-F-F a democracy is ridiculous, as there was still a Nazi making the calls, controlling the secretive data. That was and is a tyranny. You don't have to have a majority to start a union, but the union will only protect registered members and they are the ones that will strike. All organizations does is to assemble a group of people that will fight for each other, that's it. The organization admin writes the contracts, litigates and holds votes for all major things.


How would you like that, EB? How would you like it if everybody on this forum joined their own Union and the majority voted to silence your voice??? I'm willing to bet the only instances where you want a Union is when it will BENEFIT YOU. If it doesn't work for you, then you won't want it.

Pathetic analogy. A union, other than it's inception, isn't a true democracy either. As for benefit me, how astute, I need to wake up early to get one by you. I don't want to organize to benefit the company and they don't want to allow me to organize to benefit me. America is and has been for a while, very devisive. Rich vs poor, race vs the others, male vs female, etc. I would like to see a nation where there is more equity, if you think eqquity is gained by indivdualizing each person, isolating them from the others, then you are a true Nazi. There's strength in numbers and the big guys stick together, the little people should too. I bet Will is a member if SPEA and he should be. 1 in 6 people have zero healthcare and you say that's ok, you say people should stay scattered w/o it?

Unions were originally created to give a voice to, and help protect the little guy.

Employers once paid for real healthcare, not watered down BS or none at all and you say 1:6 w/o isn't an emergency? Look at wages, benefits, etc and tell me that tehre isn't a need for organization. So unionization amongst the private sector is down, likely that's due to successful union-busting processes, not the will of the people.

What I'm talking about is enforcing existing federal laws that make illegal employers for tampering with employee's rights to organize. Reagan and Bush stepped in and fired people and threatened to void contracts, which is an interferrence of federal law.

Back in the day they forced big companies using shady business practices to implement needed safety standards that were lacking at the time.

That was part of it, but the laws were there, the unions forced adherence to them just as they do today. Mortality today is lower in blue states and union shops than it is in red states/non-union shops. In reality, you are wrong, the standards were there, the unions just enforced them.

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/aldr ... rkplace.us

To limit the need of unions to merely safety is narrow minded, they protect wages and all benefits. They also oversee discipline to employees to ensure it's fair. Of course you don't care about equity.

Those were the good times. Today, most (not all) unions are used for nothing more than to extort money from companies and workers alike; and to act as non-official campaigning arms for the democrat party.

I don't know what to say to a generalized idiotic assertion like that, as they all run the spectrum. I do see that it's partisan for you. But dislike unions as you will, the right to organize is age-old and federal and you would rather break the law than try to change the law; it's obvious. Workers have a FAR greater quality of life in union shops than in non-union shops, wanna disagree?

Union members who are republicans have little say in where their union dues get spent when it comes to politics.

Why would a responsible union donate to the party that has illegally made standing federal law void? That would be like your criminal defense attorney agreeing with motions by the prosecution to suppress exculpatory evidence admitted by you. You are just senseless.

It's not about fairness anymore. It's about money and power.

Yes, that's how business operates.

The people at the top (be it at the top of a big company or a big union) could give a rat's ass about the lowly worker.

Company, yes. Unions generally protect the system, which directly benefits the employee. Does the union care about the worker individually? Not always, but they care about the system for all, it is a bit utilitarian.

Union reps will throw their own people under the bus if it will save their jobs. Translation = they will eat their own. Get it yet?

The repository of ignorance is asking me if I get it. I have seen in rare occurrence where the union makes a deal to sacrifice one for 10. As well, it is a SCOTUS case that established that an employee cannot be forced to use union representation at any step of the process and the employee could even sue the union of they committed a contract/tort against them.

The only person you can depend on in this world is yourself. If you put your trust in somebody or something else (such as a union or government), you WILL be disappointed.

If the company decides you're a scab on their ass for personal reasons, you need a union.

To those people, you are just a number, if that. YOU need to rely on yourself to make it in this world. Nobody is going to do it for you -- without a cost. And I am not willing to give up my freedoms to ANYONE just to get a free meal. I'll farm my own damn fruits and vegetables and raise my own livestock if I have to. Just get off my back so I can work for that myself

And a union requires personal responsibility too, there is no free lunch there. You seem to confuse safety in numbers to being a mountainman, it is really a silly comparison. This is an advanced world and laws are many and confusing. I'm one of the most educated laypeople around and they still confuse me, I can't imagine the average person trying to get equity w/o a union.

[EBSB52]

eb doesn't want to do any work himself. He wants everyone to do it for him, and he still wants everyone to pay for his medical insurance.

I do plenty of work, unions don't affect the work, they affect enforcement of labor rules and contract drafting. As for medical insurance, I don;t know you, but I sincerely wish upon you a medical hardship. I really hope you or someone near you falls seriosly ill, it would be poetic. And then have the insurance company wriggle out of it. No one looks at the US with envy other than 3rd world countries, wonder why?

[EBSB52]

UPDATE: Union membership had been steadily declining in the US since 1983. In 2007, the labor department reported the first increase in union memberships in 25 years and the largest increase since 1979. Sorry fascist Shaun, they're comming back as rights have hit a low. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_unio ... ted_States

Yes, please quote this website.

American union membership in the private sector has in recent years fallen under 9% — levels not seen since 1932. Workers seem uninterested in joining, and strike activity has almost faded away. The labor force in unionized automobile and steel plants, for example, has fallen dramatically. In another example, Construction trades now only represent approximately 14% of the labor market. The inability to prevent non-union companies from taking significant market share has undercut union membership.[citation needed]

The truth is that unions are dinosaurs. Most of their essential functions have been taken over by government: minimum wage, working hours, working conditions, etc. Union membership is down because unions just don't have a good value proposition for most workers. They've also managed to accumulate a reputation for being lazy, combative and mismanaged; much like the domestic auto industry has accumulated a reputation for poor quality, poor fuel economy and mismanagement.

Good management keeps the workforce happy. Only bad management requires unions to oppose it. Poorly managed companies go out of business (well... until recently).

Nice, Slick willie, you don't post that unionization has climbed in the public sector, I knew I could count on you for incomplete data. This is how Republicans fool the uneducated masses; lie.

Now, let's examine why union membership is down. Could it be the garbage you elect has illegally interfered? Could it be that there are enough scabs to break them? Northwest was broken like that. As well, corporations BK just to shed the union. Shall we look at the workplace wage vs cost index since the breaking of unions in teh US? It's quite obvious that wages are down due to the breaking of unions, unions have broken due to the garbage you elect. If you polled workers, I bet most would want to be represented.


None of you guys have even addressed my OP, just the points you want. Kinda like disavowing the dictionary definition of, "Imerialism." Right WIll?