What is he thinking?

[Aaron]

So the kid who bought my car IMs me today. He does so at least twice a week, in an effort to get advice. I don't usually mind, accept when he sits there using one person's advice against another's against another's.

I realize his knowledge of cars isn't exactly high, but I hate it when I tell him my opinion, and he says "Well Ben says this..."

So here are some of the key points of the discussion:

He started asking me a lot about throttle body sizes of differnet GMs, including the L67, LS1, N*, 4.3l, and a few others. From what I gather, he doesn't liek the way it is running and thinks a new throttle body will fix it. Sorry dude, that ain't the problem, the problem is the chip, now get it fixed already!

So then he states that he is going to cut primary length back to 18"...

Wow. I just about lost it on this one. First of all, he couldn't do anything with those headers, he simply isn't mechaniaclly apt enough. He says they hit everything and will make tuning hard. Apparently my headers are too good for Ben to tune...Sounds like Ben needs help, not the headers...But seriously, the only reason my headers would make tuning harder than with 18" primaries is because the headers are that good. I don't think they are. They need some cam timing to really start scavenging well at higher RPM. They are good for 7500-8000rpm as they sit, and he can only run to 6500.

How do you go about removing 12" of primary lenght? You can cut about 4 off the front set, and maybe 2-3 off the rear. That is ALL without totally reshaping and redesigning the entire set.

Why the fuck would you sue 18" primaries? Personally if I did anything I'd extend them to 36 as they are too short with the cams and chip as they are.

So yah, he really pissed me off tonight. And of course, once I asked him why, he couldn't explain it, best I could guess is "Ben told me so." I don't know how many times I've told him not to use Ben for tuning, I know it's only been recently, but shit, when the guy tuning your motor tells you to make it slower so I can tune it, that's a pretty clear indication to me that maybe he shouldn't be tuning it...

[/rant]

[donk_316]

what does this mean

"Why the fuck would you sue 18" primaries?"

And why do you care....do what i do and BLOCK annoying little fucks... on that note...why dont you ever come on MSN? Oh wait... You blocked me! I KNEW IT!

[Aaron]

what does this mean

"Why the fuck would you sue 18" primaries?"

And why do you care....do what i do and BLOCK annoying little fucks... on that note...why dont you ever come on MSN? Oh wait... You blocked me! I KNEW IT!

I want to know why someone would lower the prmary length from 30" to 18.

I should go ahead and block him already. It's the same thing every time. And he never understands what I'm trying to say. Ben can tell him ANYTHING and he'd believe it. Fuck Ben told him he was gonna charge extra in the winter to cover the cost of heating his shop, and Tony was like, I'm still gonna use him cuz he knows the 3.4.

You don't need to know a lot about a 3.4 to tune one. Hook up the WBO2, and burnt he chip. It is a lot of trial and error, but it isn't hard. Every dyno shop int he world can tune OBDI by now.

I don't even care. In the end that car will never make the power it can because Tony can't/won't let it. I mean seriously, he wants to cut back primary length, put a smaller TB on, all for what, so Ben can tune it easier? Personally I'd rather let Ben assrape me on the rpices and get the extra 30hp, but whatever...I don't care anymore, I got what I wanted, and that white car holds little place in my heart. It was the car I got my first BJ in, that's about it.

[OldschoolGP]

WOW 4 times??? HOLY GOD. Oh yah, I forgot to mention I talk to him daily.

You do? Sounds like you YELL at him daily for talking to anyone but you about what he wants to do with HIS car. Doesn't sound like he wanted your advice so much as he wanted to inform you of what he plans to do, and god forbid he undoes anything you ever did to that car. We all know everything you touch is gold, Mr. President.

I think if you want to preseve all your precious upgrades, you better go buy that car back from Tony. Otherwise, it's not your car anymore and no one cares how much you dislike that fact. Maybe I'll just inform Tony of this little rant of yours, then he'll stop coming back to you for such bad advice and treatment.

[SappySE107]

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[Aaron]

WOW 4 times??? HOLY GOD. Oh yah, I forgot to mention I talk to him daily.

You do? Sounds like you YELL at him daily for talking to anyone but you about what he wants to do with HIS car. Doesn't sound like he wanted your advice so much as he wanted to inform you of what he plans to do, and god forbid he undoes anything you ever did to that car. We all know everything you touch is gold, Mr. President.

I think if you want to preseve all your precious upgrades, you better go buy that car back from Tony. Otherwise, it's not your car anymore and no one cares how much you dislike that fact. Maybe I'll just inform Tony of this little rant of yours, then he'll stop coming back to you for such bad advice and treatment.

I don't mind at all him asking me questions, but when he doesn't use common sense, yes it pisses me off. He wasn't informing me, he was asking me.

They must be gold, I spent under $2000 and made the same power as your $5000 motor, with an A:F graph all over the place, no IAT sensor, no O2 sensor, etc.

It'll be a cold day in hell before I ever buy another Lumina. Heavy as shit, can't handle to save its life, braking sucks, the interior looks down and out awful, and they mostly look like shit by now. The only thing it had going for it was a decent powertrain.

[Aaron]

aaron, what do you know? I dont have that nice shop I used to have nor am I using the cheaper heating solution. Electric heaters cost more to heat up a garage, but im not inhaling kerosene or diesel all day like I used to. Tony has had all summer/spring/fall to bring me the car but then wants to do it in winter. So I gave him the option to pay for the heating cost to do the work. Besides, did I say how much more? God, you act like I said 3 million bucks more.

Then don't run a business. It is his choice when he wants to bring the car to you. Close your shop in winter if your suckass education can't allow you to get a job good enough to pay the bills. It was enough more to make Tony think twice about bringing the car to you.

What do you know on header design and OBD1 tuning? Not a damn thing. Slower? hahaha, it can't possibly be slower compared to how it runs now. Blame my chip for how it runs now? Idiot, it ran like shit with the stock chip, so blaming me for the setup you made not running properly is a weak characteristic. Blame others for what you fucked up (btw, I fixed some of your fuck ups, as I have pointed out in other threads. You couldn't even seal up the damn IAC passage behind the TB! If I had fucked up the tuning, I would be driving up there now to fix it. The chip that is in there wasn't tuned with the car so say what you want on my abilities...you know nothing. Telling people not to have me tune is very 2 faced of you, after you were telling people how great my chip is months ago.

So in short, the ehaders are so good that you can't tune for them? I bet ya I could get most any other OBDI tuner (Just about every dyno shop on this Earth), to tune it just fine. You said the car didn't run right because it wasn't tuned right did you not? Now if the chip controls the tuning, sounds as if the chip is to blame for it not running right...And as I said before, it ran pretty much the exact same with the stock chip, just started easier and idled better.

Wow, you compromised the longevity of the headers to fix a pinhole that has very little affect on the O2 anyways. It wouldn't have read even if they were perfect. The IAC passage was sealed just fine, those welds were pressure tested dumbass. The sealing problem was the gasket, and that got accidentally torn at some point in removing the setup so I could change the valve cover gasket for Tony and Tony's car.

It is obvious that the headers are good enough that you can't tune for them no?

Block him, im sure after reading this post he will not want to talk to you anyway. EIther way, i dont care. If he brings me the car and tells me to do it how I see fit, im going to do it how I see fit. I knew you wouldnt like knowing that your poorly built headers were coming off the car to be redone, but what does that matter. Its his car, and he wants it to RUN PROPERLY! he doesnt want to race it at daytona like you seemed to set it up for. 18" primaries will allow the O2 to heat up, get a reading, and not be delayed on RPM/LOAD point like it would if it even worked right now. It doesnt work now cause you suck at welding and the lengths are too much for the stock computer. My other option to him was to run aftermarket ECM with 6 sensors that could better monitor the motor. Thats for your daytona inspired setup.

In short. Fuck off moron.

Oh I'm the moron. I should have gone to Devry...Or was it Community college? Oh both, that's right...

I'm not going to block him. If/when he has a question, he can feel free to ask, I have no problem telling him. But when he does it like this, it pisses me off.

Headers make a car run not properly? When your tuner can't tune for them yes.

So what is wrong with a 4-wire O2 sensor? Is that beyond your abilities? It is easier to totally rebuild a set of headers, make them much less optimized for performance, and put them back on?

[SappySE107]

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[Aaron]

I forgot how worthless it is to talk to you. I fail to see what my CIS education has to do with what im doing now. It should also be obvious that I don't want to work on his car in the winter. If he goes somewhere else to have the work done, great. Im not sitting here WAITING for him to bring me the car. I have plenty of work to do.

When you can tune a car, I will listen to what you have to say on tuning (not really).

How are your headers too good for me to tune. I guess you failed to see where the OBD1 computer will not read the O2 with your headers. Hmmm, so now its my fault that with the equipment provided it is impossible to tune. I would have to disable the O2 and disable the BLM and INT and then hope nothing ever happens to the injectors or wires or plugs or EGR or hell, anything slightly mechanical. Its not safe.

Prove something aaron. Stop trying to insult me with your poor use of the english language, your ego, and your ignorance. Its humor, and its sad. Your superior education hasnt made you more wise.

Well you can't afford to heat your shop because your half-ass business isn't paying the bills, and since education and salary have a direct correlation, your education, or lack thereof, is a reason for you having to charge your customers more in the winter.

Should I charge the people whom I write tickets more becuase I had to get gloves becuase of the winter? You aren't waiting for him to bring you the car. Do your other projects now. Bullshit you put your entire business on hold because some 19 year old kid said over a year ago he will have you tune his car.

My Bel Air is running perfectly fine with headers, and I tuned it. In fact, it'll blow the doors off of a 405hp Corvette with a 6-speed.

4 wire O2 sensor. Doesn't sound hard to me...And if the car can tune for 18" primaries, it can tune for 30s. You just have to make it do so. Wrap the headers and move the O2 to one of the collectors.

Where did I use the English language in an incorrect fashion?

[SappySE107]

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[Aaron]

What good is a heated O2 when the delay of the exhaust at the O2 is that much. Its not like its just 30", you also have the collectors, and then the Y pipe to join those collectors. This is why I told him to either go with a 6 sensor setup or shorten the primaries. He wants a street driven car that runs good, not a race car. Get that through your skull.

Wow, you tuned a carbed setup that uses no computer, congrats.

I guess I need to spell this out for you in laymens terms. I dont charge more than I feel I need to for doing a job. If I were a "shop", i would have quoted him double+ what I did, to cover everything, any time. So does that look bad now?

Why not run the 4-wire right at the collector? 30" length, especially when you have the scavenging affect, isn't going to have a noticable delay. And does the ECU even read from the O2 at WOT? I didn't think so, and since your reasons for not going with the 4-wire are for engine safety, it's kind of a mute point isn't it? Or is he going to detonate uncontrollably and snap the rods at idle?

I drive a race car every day over summer that runs smoother than ANY stock 3.4 I've ever driven, and will still light up all 4 tires, your point?

Thanks, it took a few weeks. If you've never seen a Demon carb, which I doubt you have, they are unliek Holleys in a lot of different ways. It took a while to get the carb to react with the blower right.

[p8ntman442]

My Bel Air is running perfectly fine with headers, and I tuned it. In fact, it'll blow the doors off of a 405hp Corvette with a 6-speed.

cough*benchrace*cough

[Aaron]

Really? Cuz I swear I know the guy. His name is Shawn, the Vette is a black with red/black interior, with stock Z06 wheels painted black. The car is stock. And upon driving it, it runs like every other Z06 I've driven (2-3).

As for the race, he launched well and was definately running it hard. A LS6 small block at 6500rpm sounds pretty good.

But I guess it is pretty hard to believe, you know, I've only got 60 cubic inches, 10 pounds of boost, and a bunch more bolt ons than he does, all paired together with one of the best carbs made, and the best ignition for our setup.

[OldschoolGP]

They must be gold, I spent under $2000 and made the same power as your $5000 motor, with an A:F graph all over the place, no IAT sensor, no O2 sensor, etc.

You seem fixated on the fact that I spent some money on my motor. You think anybody really cares how much I spent? You think saying it all the time is some kind of insult? Yeah, I spent about 5 grand on my motor, and for that I have an engine that's balanced up to 8000 RPM, a bottom end that is virtually indestructible, a blueprinted engine, and heads that make consistent power.

Hi, my name as Aaron. I spent under 2 grand and made as much power as Oldskool! I'm super awesome, and I'm gonna wirte this in my diary! Loser, your motor made a spike of power. Mine makes consistent power for over 3000 RPM! Maybe you're looking for the most power possible, I'm not. When you're building a motor for road course racing, you want consistent power, which I've got. You did not. And you can blame it on Ben's chip, bad A:F or whatever. My car's A:F ratio was 12:1 or HIGHER when I had my car dynoed. Do I bitch about it? No. Do I blame Ben because my car is running rich? No. Do you blame yourself for any of the problems Tony has had with that car? NO!

Hi, my name is Aaron. I am incapable of making a mistake. I know everyone can't be perfect like me, but I'm not afraid to shout bad things about them anyway. Because if I say the same bullshit long enough and loud enough, sooner or later someone will believe it, right? Well, regardless, I'm better than everybody, and will continue to be as long as their is a forum out there that will put up with my nonsense.

[Aaron]

You seem fixated on the fact that I spent some money on my motor. You think anybody really cares how much I spent? You think saying it all the time is some kind of insult? Yeah, I spent about 5 grand on my motor, and for that I have an engine that's balanced up to 8000 RPM, a bottom end that is virtually indestructible, a blueprinted engine, and heads that make consistent power.

Balanced to 8 grand doesn't mean shit when you're only running to 7. Virtually indestructable? You didn't even think to fix the weakest link of the motor! You didn't do a damn thing for oiling. Furthermore, how do you expect do go near breaking it? Tim is pushing over 120whp more than you, on a stock 150,000 miles block. So why build it bullet proof when it doesn't need it? All you did was spend a fuckload of money on parts that do jack shit.

Loser, your motor made a spike of power. Mine makes consistent power for over 3000 RPM! Maybe you're looking for the most power possible, I'm not. When you're building a motor for road course racing, you want consistent power, which I've got. You did not. And you can blame it on Ben's chip, bad A:F or whatever. My car's A:F ratio was 12:1 or HIGHER when I had my car dynoed. Do I bitch about it? No. Do I blame Ben because my car is running rich? No. Do you blame yourself for any of the problems Tony has had with that car? NO!

My motor built to a maximum, made it, and fell off. Sounds like every other dyno in the world...It was pretty consitent, fuck I had to 7000rpm and floored countless times with Tony in the car, and it ran fine. So the dyno day, read the day I got it running, it wasn't quite finished yet. The braces weren't on, it iddn't have an intake, etc. It was pretty consistent. All the runs were within 10whp or so.

12:1 or higher is perfect, not really all that rich, and certianly not enough to make a noticable amount of power. Stock they run 12.5. So your's is a tad rich, but not 10:1 rich or 15:1 lean, which oh btw, mine was. I'm pretty sure Ben's chip was the reason. I mean it could be the floormats, but I dunno, something about the ECU controlling the motor's A:F ratio made me think it was the chip that controls the ECU...

Hi, my name is aaron. I am incapable of making a mistake. I know everyone can't be perfect like me, but I'm not afraid to shout bad things about them anyway. Because if I say the same bullshit long enough and loud enough, sooner or later someone will believe it, right? Well, regardless, I'm better than everybody, and will continue to be as long as their is a forum out there that will put up with my nonsense.

What here did I say was bullshit? You made the same amount of power as me with 3x the money into the motor, and a decent A:F ratio. That is fact fucktard. The dyno sheets don't lie, and I wouldn't be worried about breaking rods at 218hp...

[OldschoolGP]

Balanced to 8 grand doesn't mean shit when you're only running to 7. Virtually indestructable? You didn't even think to fix the weakest link of the motor! You didn't do a damn thing for oiling. Furthermore, how do you expect do go near breaking it? Tim is pushing over 120whp more than you, on a stock 150,000 miles block. So why build it bullet proof when it doesn't need it? All you did was spend a fuckload of money on parts that do jack shit.

See what I mean about saying the same bullshit over and over, only louder? You're not putting me down by saying I spent money, you're not convincing anyone I'm stupid for spending money on my car. You are just an insecure little blowhard blowing off steam because you've got nothing better to do. I wouldn't have had it balanced to 8 grand if I didn't intend to run it that high someday, and when you rev that high you want to know your bottom end can hold up. A stock 3.4 bottom end wouldn't hold up to going to 8 grand too many times. I have fixed the oiling, I just don't mention it because as you put it, "It doesn't make power."

Nothing you say means anything, everything you say is contradictiory and illogical. You live in the past because for a brief moment you may have had a glimmer of popularity. Go play with your Fiero and your precious '55 Bel Air, stops saying shit about us in the w-Body community, and we'll leave you be. We don't seek you out, you seek us out by saying shit about us. Stop saying shit, and everyone will be a lot happier.

[Aaron]

See what I mean about saying the same bullshit over and over, only louder? You're not putting me down by saying I spent money, you're not convincing anyone I'm stupid for spending money on my car. You are just an insecure little blowhard blowing off steam because you've got nothing better to do. I wouldn't have had it balanced to 8 grand if I didn't intend to run it that high someday, and when you rev that high you want to know your bottom end can hold up. A stock 3.4 bottom end wouldn't hold up to going to 8 grand too many times. I have fixed the oiling, I just don't mention it because as you put it, "It doesn't make power."

Oiling may not directly make power, but it is a critacally weak link in the motor. And I highly doubt you've done ANYTHING to improve the problems. If so what have you done? I have been studying the oil issues and ways around them for a few months now, and have a pretty good idea on how to make the bearings comfortable, even at 8000rpm.

A stock 3.4 bottom end wouldn't hold up to going to 8 grand too many times

Wanna bet?

You certainly have a lot of proof for this don't you?

Nothing you say means anything, everything you say is contradictiory and illogical. You live in the past because for a brief moment you may have had a glimmer of popularity. Go play with your Fiero and your precious '55 Bel Air, stops saying shit about us in the w-Body community, and we'll leave you be. We don't seek you out, you seek us out by saying shit about us. Stop saying shit, and everyone will be a lot happier

What did I say that was contradictory or illogical? I don't live at all in the past, I was a fool for believing a 3400lb FWD car could ever be a good platform to start with on a performance street car. I have since moved on to a much more performance oriented platform, mid mount RWD.

My 55 is anything but precious. It has more rust than your base model 4-door. I'll say shit all I want.

[SappySE107]

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[SappySE107]

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[Aaron]

He has done something for the oiling. You can find out once you share your head flow numbers. Research....consists of reading forums and talking shit?

And printing multiple 36x36" sheets of the engine's design architecture and talking to people who have helped me with my motors in the past on the enigne's oiling design.