High Feature V6 Swap

Real tech discussion on design, fabrication, testing, development of custom or adapted parts for Pontiac Fieros. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

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The Dark Side of Will
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

draven wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:20 pm
16 pin Connector Part#: 13589631 $33 - $55
Terminal Part#: 13505803 $7-$9 each need 9 I believe
The connector bodies can be a bit expensive.

When I google/DuckDuckGo the terminal, the results are called "Wire", so that PN may be for an individual wire pigtail rather than the naked terminal.
Can you post pics of the connector body and terminals?
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by draven »

Found the connector type.. although I had to buy another Fuel Pump control module to get the pigtail....

It's a Molex PA/SPS-GF20

TTI and Mouser both sell it for about $1 - $3 a piece.. not sure if that includes the pins or not yet...
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by ericjon262 »

I highly doubt pins are included, they almost never are.
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

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draven wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:48 pm Found the connector type.. although I had to buy another Fuel Pump control module to get the pigtail....

It's a Molex PA/SPS-GF20

TTI and Mouser both sell it for about $1 - $3 a piece.. not sure if that includes the pins or not yet...
UPDATE: The PA/SPS-GF20 connector is just the outside housing... the inside is a bladed connector like the OBDII connector.... whereas what mouser and TTI offer is different....
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Have any pics?
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by draven »

Here's the unit with the pigtail I purchased from TLS

Image

And here's the fuel pump control module unit side connector...

Image

I'll get a connector side view today or tomorrow...
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

draven wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:18 pm
draven wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:48 pm Found the connector type.. although I had to buy another Fuel Pump control module to get the pigtail....

It's a Molex PA/SPS-GF20

TTI and Mouser both sell it for about $1 - $3 a piece.. not sure if that includes the pins or not yet...
UPDATE: The PA/SPS-GF20 connector is just the outside housing... the inside is a bladed connector like the OBDII connector.... whereas what mouser and TTI offer is different....
SPS-GF20 is the flavor of nylon from which the connector body is made.
Ctrl-F "GF20" in this doc: https://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/sd/334720806_sd.pdf


Is it the Molex 33472 family? https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mo ... cpg0lh0%3D
They look right, but I haven't seen one with 12 small pins and 4 large ones.
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by draven »

Right.. that's the same one I tracked down from mouser...

I'm going to 'gently' attempt to disassemble the connector to see if the internal bit has a part number


On another note... you guys know the problems I'm having with two vendors and starting the chargeback process, one being California Clutch / ClutchNet out of South El Monte CA... I just had a fraudulent attempt of $1.00, usually a probe charge to see if its valid, on the same card I gave them out of....guess..... El Monte CA. Card is shutdown and new one on the way... but really!? Either they are crooked as the day is long or they are sloppy with their customer's data....
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by ericjon262 »

draven wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:17 pm Right.. that's the same one I tracked down from mouser...

I'm going to 'gently' attempt to disassemble the connector to see if the internal bit has a part number


On another note... you guys know the problems I'm having with two vendors and starting the chargeback process, one being California Clutch / ClutchNet out of South El Monte CA... I just had a fraudulent attempt of $1.00, usually a probe charge to see if its valid, on the same card I gave them out of....guess..... El Monte CA. Card is shutdown and new one on the way... but really!? Either they are crooked as the day is long or they are sloppy with their customer's data....

jesus. it blows my mind how hard it is to get a non stock replacement clutch.
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by draven »

Just a quick update:

Still waiting on chargeback feedback from bank on California Clutch and Alpha Fab Motorsports

Custom cobalt turbo splined axles are done and shipping back to me tomorrow so I can get started on the cradle mounts....

Acquired both a manual 2016 ATSV LF4 ECU and Harness and have been comparing sensor part numbers between between the lf4 and lf3. The only difference so far is the HP Fuel rail sensor and the oil pressure sender which is a 3 wire with the LF4.

The ATSV LF4 setup has been made stand alone already by a few vendors. John at Mars Swap up in ohio has been a big help thus far getting my learning curve up and over the hump with some of the nuances, directed me to superior Mitchell wiring diagrams for tracing, and only wanted a case of Mountain Dew for their efforts... awesome fellas.

The ATSV LF4 only needs the Fuel Pump Control Module to run the PWM fuel pump whereas the XTS LF3 has a more complex Chassis control module that also controls the PWM fuel pump.

Working through theoretically how the ignition switch signal to BCM to ECU via CanBus can be bypassed and passed directly to the ECU , Mars Swap once again helped me out with how they did it... unlike one vendor in FL who "told me to figure it out myself" even after I offered to pay for the knowledge upfront. I'll post here how easy it really is once I get it wired and functioning..

All in all I'll be getting the engine functioning on the cradle first before shoehorning it in....

EricJohn, I'll be needing the VSS axle ring gear CAD file pretty soon and will be pinging you as soon as I get the paint off the intermediate shaft for a heated slip fit measurement.
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by ericjon262 »

draven wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 9:07 pm
EricJohn, I'll be needing the VSS axle ring gear CAD file pretty soon and will be pinging you as soon as I get the paint off the intermediate shaft for a heated slip fit measurement.
Awesome, just let me know the dimensions you want and tooth count and I'll make it happen.
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by draven »

laying out and planning wiring harness etc... and looking at intercooler water pumps and looking for advice from some of you who have worked with A2W setups...or have taken classes in fluid dynamics (only played around with mk2 MR2 A2A setups in the past)

Looking to add additional cooling capacity above stock so given the long length of the run between the LF3/LF4 A2W core to the front of the car and back, would it be more prudent to have a secondary coolant pump, two ZL1's, or just a serioiusly upgraded water pump , such as a Stewart-EMP?

Also would it be worth it to looking into a mechanical water pump in place of the power steering pump to work take care of IC core coolant flow?
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

If ZL1 pumps are cheap and you're concerned about having enough circulation, you could put one at the engine pushing coolant forward, then one at the HEX up front pushing coolant back.

The mechanical pump sounds like a good idea at first, but locks you in to that location for plumbing purposes, which may cause you to make compromised packaging decisions for other components.

Probably the biggest factor is how big your lines can be. A few extra feet of hose is probably not much additional head compared to the two HEX cores. ZL1 pumps handle the heat load of a 650HP supercharger, right? One should be fine for the much more efficient turbo system you're building.
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

What's wrong with a single zl1 pump or even a Bosch 03 cobra pump?

Not enough flow? How much less will the pump flow if it has yo push it to the front and then back? I dont think it would be that effected would it?
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by ericjon262 »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 2:55 pm If ZL1 pumps are cheap and you're concerned about having enough circulation, you could put one at the engine pushing coolant forward, then one at the HEX up front pushing coolant back.
if you want more volumetric flowrate, you would be better off running the pumps in parallel instead of series, unless the pumps can't overcome the headloss of the system. this is why you almost never see fuel pumps in series except for direct injection applications.

a general rule of thumb for centrifugal pumps in a closed loop:

Two similar pumps in series can provide (approximately) twice the head of one pump, but at approximately the same flow.

Placing two pumps in parallel will provide (approximately) double the flow, but minimal additional head.

http://www.mcnallyinstitute.com/18-html/18-1.htm



another helpful closed loop centrifugal pump thumb rule:

the change in flow of a pump is proportional to the change in speed

the change in head is proportional to the change in speed squared

and

the change in power required is proportional to the change in speed cubed

example, if a pump draws one watt to provide 1 GPM at a head of 1 foot, doubling the speed of the pump would result in

2 GPM

4 feet of head

and

16 watts of power consumption

these are all approximate, but do work for rough math.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/affi ... d_408.html
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Don't forget that a centrifugal pump is not a constant displacement pump. In your example 16W pump producing 4 feet of head, but connected to an open pipe 5 feet long, flow would be 2GPM with the pipe horizontal, but zero if the pipe were pointed straight up from the pump. Thus for a long, circuitous system, flow can drop significantly vs. a shorter system, while the pump develops the same head and consumes the same power.

The big difference between AWIC systems in a front engine car vs. a Fiero is simply the length of the lines, which is an issue of head, which is why I suggested pumps in series if he's concerned about getting enough water through the system. Since the ZL1 pump is designed for the flow volume to handle the waste heat of a 650 HP supercharged (less thermally efficient) application, and he'll have a 500ish HP turbocharged (more thermally efficient) application, flow volume is not really the question.
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

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Thanks for the input gentleman... got me up to speed quickly to start running some numbers and considering ideas...

One of the first ATS-V upgrades to keep intake temps down is to replace the IC pump with a ZL1, a very good pump, but was wondering if the gains realized by the ZL1 would be lost with the additional routing imposed within the Fiero.

The Stock ATS-V has 3 (Three) A2W heat exchangers in the front...a large one in the center grille and two smaller ones flanking the larger below the headlights...

https://jalopnik.com/the-cadillac-ats-v ... 1787045357

Image

Not sure if I could fit all three of the ATS-V exchangers in the front of the fiero's nose or even what the solution may be at this time. Maybe a new faux 512 nose from Amida and make use of LED turn signals and open up two additional spots for additional exchangers. Even thought about fitting an MR2 Mk2 Border nose which has lots of radiator room.

I am having thaDriver from OE rework as set of aus fiero scoops ( and subsequently I'll be opening up some of the sheet metal behind them) to significantly increase air flow into the bay...not exactly sure how to use the additional bay flow yet though:

1. Leave them open to cool engine bay (yes I know, transverse is horrible for this type of flow) with decklid scoop / vents to evac the flow 'through' the bay.
2. A2W IC exchangers
3. Radiators
4. Oil cooler
5. Some combination

IF the bay heat can't be managed I'v considered opening up a large oval passage from the engine bay, through the trunk, and through a set of opened up and hexgrilled fiberglass rear taillights similar to many modern midengined setups... but this is ALL speculation at this point...but I do know I will have to deal with a fair amount of heat back there...especially on the track.

On another note, the Saab LP9 turbo exhaust guy is a go... he's cnc'ing an LF3/LF4 flange and I'm sending him pictures and measurements every other day to get started... also won't take a dollar until he's done.
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by ericjon262 »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 8:47 am Don't forget that a centrifugal pump is not a constant displacement pump. In your example 16W pump producing 4 feet of head, but connected to an open pipe 5 feet long, flow would be 2GPM with the pipe horizontal, but zero if the pipe were pointed straight up from the pump. Thus for a long, circuitous system, flow can drop significantly vs. a shorter system, while the pump develops the same head and consumes the same power.

The big difference between AWIC systems in a front engine car vs. a Fiero is simply the length of the lines, which is an issue of head, which is why I suggested pumps in series if he's concerned about getting enough water through the system. Since the ZL1 pump is designed for the flow volume to handle the waste heat of a 650 HP supercharged (less thermally efficient) application, and he'll have a 500ish HP turbocharged (more thermally efficient) application, flow volume is not really the question.
abosolutely true, I would not run a positive displacement pump for the IC. your example that is also very dependent on the size of the pipe, IIRC, using pipe of half the diameter results in something like 16 times the headloss. this also brings in NPSH requirements, two pumps in parallel can use an expansion tank to provide adequate NPSH, whereas in series at opposite ends of the vehicle, they cannot. if I were to run two pumps in series, I would prefer to run them end to end instead, then the number one pump directly supplies the number 2, and NPSH can be ensured to both pumps, and packaging is much easier.

on another related note, I would not recommend running a bilge pump, alot of guys like to run them for a2w setups, but they don't generate very much head compared to a bosch, or other purpose built pump. they are designed to solely pump water from atmosphere to atmosphere with limited restrictions.
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

draven wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 5:49 pm One of the first ATS-V upgrades to keep intake temps down is to replace the IC pump with a ZL1, a very good pump, but was wondering if the gains realized by the ZL1 would be lost with the additional routing imposed within the Fiero.

The Stock ATS-V has 3 (Three) A2W heat exchangers in the front...a large one in the center grille and two smaller ones flanking the larger below the headlights...

I am having thaDriver from OE rework as set of aus fiero scoops ( and subsequently I'll be opening up some of the sheet metal behind them) to significantly increase air flow into the bay...not exactly sure how to use the additional bay flow yet though:
Did you see Bloozeberry's quarter panel radiators for his Northstar/F355 replica?

Maybe the ATS-V center LTR goes up front in the Fiero and the side mount ones go in your quarter panel scoops.
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draven
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Re: High Feature V6 Swap

Post by draven »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 11:28 am
Did you see Bloozeberry's quarter panel radiators for his Northstar/F355 replica?

Maybe the ATS-V center LTR goes up front in the Fiero and the side mount ones go in your quarter panel scoops.
thanks for the heads up on blooze's site.. I forgot he had done that, especially venting them into the wheel wells which allows more freedom of mounting. Not sure exactly how much room I'll have but might very well use the enhanced scoops to do just that... I'm going to 'have' to get the heat out of the bay and will still need some additional air getting in to realize it.... if anything the LF3/LF4 run rather hot at the twins and pre-cats.. Renick Performance often sees 1600 deg F there... Granted I'll be running the turbo over the F40 and only one hi-flow CAT.

Ok just for documentation:
the V8 Roadsters power steering delete pulley for their LFX/Miate works without issue on the LF3 block

The ATS-V 230 amp Alternator fits directly to the Camaro LFX alternator bracket which mounts perfectly to the LF3 block and still clears the F40 half-shaft and saab bracket with room to spare. allows me to get the alternator to mate up to the ATS-V harness and to the stock fiero location clearing up room on the firewall side by only having the compressor there.

And the ATS-V ECU on my test bed is barking for a Gear Position Sensor with no way to disable through HP Tuners... tracked down the part #: 24283438, (also called a "Range Sensor") if I can mount or reverse engineer (Arduino NANO?) the magnetic sensor with PWM sender it will 'theoretically' activate the manual rev-matching / no lift shifting feature.... sounds cool but just working to get the ECU happy so it can give the all clear and not go to limp mode.

Found the stack height of the Saab F40 clutch/pp/fw combo... 3.15" not a lot of room to work with for a twin disc setup. We'll see what RAM clutches can do.. However, I can get a button flywheel, twin 7.5" organic clutch pack (800ft/lbs) and pp from Power Train Technologies as a backup but its guaranteed to have floater plate rattle at idle. :)

Resplined LNF Axles are in and will be assembling them this weekend.
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