To build the ultimate 3.4 DOHC: Turbo DYNO NUMBERS

[fieromadman]

So I think I'll officially call this: Project dyno more than Aaron. Seriously I would like to be in the 450 WHP range when my setup is all said and done. Consider this thread a build thread and Currently I am running:

95 3.4 DOHC (around 110,000 miles on the clock FTW!), custom cams, 96-97 intake manifold swap, bigger injectors (36 lb), custom 2.5" mandrel bent exhaust with flowmaster 80 series, ported exhaust mani's (running two front ones), ported and polished lower intake manifold, underdrive pulley, Magnecor 8.5 mil wires, chipped by Darth, p/s&a/c delete pullies, LT1 Vette fuel pump, 180* t-stat, NGK iridium IX plugs, and k&n filter (warm air intake). In case some of you didn't catch this, I ran a 13.6 @ 102 with this setup.

Here's some pictures of the current setup:











Check my next post for plans on what I would like to do with the car.

[Aaron]

Bring it on :salute:

If you're aiming for 450whp, then you're already aiming higher than I am. If I make that much I'm turning the boost down, quick!

Car looks, and performs, great, I really look forward tot his build. Take plenty of pictures!

[fieromadman]

Right now I’m in the process of porting a set of heads for this engine. I hope to have those finished up and on the car by the end of May. That should be the last mod that this engine will see N/A. I will dyno the car at that point in time and I'm hoping to make 260 HP. Keep in mind this engine has 110,000 miles on it. At that point the dyno will give me a nice base line for the engine N/A vs. Boosted. Before I boost I will definitely need to address the block.

Considering Matt Hawkin's car is pushing out 415 whp on a virtually stock block, and my goals being not much higher than that, I wouldn't be overly concerned with the strength of a good rebuilt engine with a few minor tweaks like he has, except for the fact that I tend to beat the shit out of my cars. I really don't want to see rods and pistons all over the road behind me.

What I'm thinking right now for the block would be ARP bolts all around, custom rods, hyper pistons, cryo treated crank, and using 3X00 mains.

Now about the mains, apparently the structural oil pan off the 3X00 which cross bolts into the mains does not bolt up to the existing bolt holes on the block. This can be remedied by either welding and redrilling the pan or redrilling the block. Personally, although the pan is aluminum I would rather weld and re-drill that than mess with the block. Luckily for me I know a great fabricator who could weld and drill those holes painlessly. The other option would be getting custom 4 bolt mains or just running the 3X00 mains without the structural pan because they are stouter anyhow. I could always do a custom girdle to work with the cross bolts but that would probably prove to be more trouble than it's worth.

I have a question about the pistons. Obviously forged are best but I'm not in the mood, now or in the near future, to drop close to 1000 dollars on a custom set. How well do hypereutectic pistons hold up to boost. I know Matt Hawkins is running these as well, and I know a lot of turbo factory cars have these as well, just seeking opinions. I know Sealed Power makes some hypereutectic pistons for this engine, and I think that's about as good as it's going to get for slugs without going completely custom.

So, now that I have questions about the block and my plans for the block laid out, obviously the turbo kit is next. As of right now because it's kind of staring me in the face and it definitely seems to be sized appropriately for the engine Kohburns turbo seems to be in the lead there. It'll save me a few bucks and should perform up to my expectations. Here's a link to the turbonetics website on the turbo: http://www.turboneticsinc.com/products/ ... gory_id=89

As for exhaust with the turbo setup I think I'll need to run 3" into the muffler to reduce backpressure but run it in much the same fashion that I already have. For now because I'm running the stock manifold I'll be using a 2.25" crossover, which is stock DOHC, but Shorty headers and a different (I.E. larger) crossover will come later.

Now this is where things start to get hazy. Would an internal or external wastegate suit this application best? I have always heard that an external is best to avoid spiking and boost drop off, but perhaps there’s reasons to go internal as well. Perhaps I'm looking for a way to save a little money, or save room in the engine bay. Also I will be needing an intercooler, and due to the mid engined setup, I would think that liquid to air would be the best way to go about it. Trouble is that I don't know where to mount the damn thing. I wouldn't even know where to mount an air to air intercooler. Ideas anyone?!

In order to keep this engine alive with the turbo kit on it I will need some pretty good engine management. Besides that, I have had NOTHING but trouble with the fucking 94-95 Monte ecm with the manual tranny. I STILL have idle issues and stalling issues too. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that I want to get away, far, far away from that ecm. Right now, because of budget and compatibility, I'm thinking about converting to the TGP 7727 ecm. While yes, it will need much tuning, everything is realistically there. Boost maps, manual tranny functions, dis, and the same types of sensors. I don't have to worry about the EGR dilemma either since I am EGR-less. Again, open to suggestions on ecm's.

Right now that is about it. Really looking for ideas and input now. Sorry for the REALLY long post.

[fieromadman]

Bring it on :salute:

If you're aiming for 450whp, then you're already aiming higher than I am. If I make that much I'm turning the boost down, quick!

Car looks, and performs, great, I really look forward tot his build. Take plenty of pictures!

I have a ton of pictures of the car already. Will definatly be taking a ton more when this all happens. And with a completely stock bottom end, I don't blame you for wanting to turn the boost down. I still don't get why you didn't at least do ARP bolts in the bottom end.

Thanks for the complements!

[fieromadman]

Here's a few more pictures to liven the thread up.

The ported/polished lower intake (and why these heads are so "special"):


The custom cams:







Gasket matched exhaust mani's:


Some plans for shorty headers in the future (made to correct bend dimensions and ETC):







Thats about all I have for now. Will get some head porting pics later...

[Kohburn]

can get a tool from summit racing to o-ring the block for like 200$ would highly recommend it for your power goals.

[fieromadman]

Do you o-ring the block deck or the heads? I always thought it was the heads... Good idea though. I had always kinda wondered about that, since back in the day when I was looking at WCF's turbo setup on the dohc.

[Shaun41178(2)]

I don't think its necessary to make a block girdle or use the 3x00 mains with the dohc motor especially with your power goals where they are.

I also don't think you need to O-ring anything with your power goals.

These are just added expenses that will cut into your budget that you probably won't need to have done. If you have extra money then go for it, but I think the block will be fine without this done.

Good arp rod bolts, headstuds(I think these are getting made over at 60degree forum) and you can use arp pushrod head studs for the main caps for extra stability.

450 whp is not that much. With a 35R you can probably do it at around 14 psi.

I think 450 whp is about as max as you can get with a stock style fiero clutch anyways. After that you will probably need a twin disk and lots more money.

The honda guys just use good rod bolts in their setups on stock rods and no head studs nor o-ringing, and they don't have too many bottom end problems. Those guys do 300+ whp no problem.

[Kohburn]

Do you o-ring the block deck or the heads? I always thought it was the heads... Good idea though. I had always kinda wondered about that, since back in the day when I was looking at WCF's turbo setup on the dohc.

you can either or both

i o-ringed the block on my subaru because it had chronic head gasket problems. never happened again.

to have the head done you have to have a shop do it.

to have both done you o-ring the block slightly, insert eh stainless steal o-ring, then machine a fatter groove int he head. the ring pushes the head gasket up into the groove in the head. this is the type they use for the 800whp subarus. but is overkill for 500 crank hp.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Obviously forged are best but I'm not in the mood, now or in the near future, to drop close to 1000 dollars on a custom set.

Get an actual quote.
Ross and CP both charged about ~$90 each for custom slugs for my Northstar, which has only a smidgen bigger bore (93mm) than you need (92 mm).

The other plus with a custom slug is that they can be any oversize you want, as long as you can find appropriate rings (call Kevin at Total Seal). You may be able to get by with only .010 oversize, which will help you keep strength in your block.

Small journal SBC conrods can be used in the 60 degree with minor modifications (narrowing the big end to fit the V6 crank). With aftermarket rods and custom pistons (any compression height you want), you could step up from 5.700" rod length almost to 6" rods and help your detonation resistance.

If you're doing a balls out build, custom pistons really aren't THAT expensive compared to the flexibility they give you.

[fieromadman]

Here's some pictures of the ported heads I'm working on. Not even close to being done yet...















I'll keep you guys updated on those...

[fieromadman]

Personally, I'd rather put the extra money into it now than deal with it when it blows up so I'm going to do my best to keep it held together. Even if I didn't use a girdle or the structural oil pan off a 3X00 the mains are still heftier. Just bolting them on in the traditional fashion with, of course, some ARP studs should put me sitting much better than stock allready.

Theres so many different directions that I could go with this project. I pretty much posted on here so that you guys could help me figure out what I should be concerned about.

Pistons will definately need to be upgraded, but forged or hyperuetectic is the question. I don't trust stockers thats for sure. I will check into the forged customs. That would only be like 30-40 more vs hypers...

I know compared to aftermarket, stock rods are kinda wimpy, but they are forged. Do you think stockers that have been shot peened would hold up to my power goals?

I dont know about the O-ringing. Honestly, if I'm going to have that done it's going to be a shop that will do it anyhow. I would be a lot less concerned with needing to do that if this were a MLS headgasket. I should have gotten in on that group buy...

[fieromadman]

Pricing things out:

Turbo: $600
Wastegate: $200
BOV: $50
Intercooler (using generic parts): $100
Pistons (higher for forged): $350-600
Rods (only if I get custom Forged pistons to deal with the wrist pin size change otherwise shot peened stockers): $360
Main & head studs (rods come with ARP already): $400
3X00 Main caps (used): ~$100
Block Work (this seem right for a bore and a line bore If I bring it in fully diassembled and re-assemble myself?): ~$3-400
ECU (depends on what I go with here): ~$200 minimum
Injectors: $600
Clutch: $420

Total not including the small things: about $4000 :cussing:

Here's some of the parts that I've been thinking about using for this:

Clutch: Spec Stage 3+ http://www.ultrarev.com/product.php?productid=33495

Injectors: 71# RC's http://www.rceng.com/Saturated-Injector ... P63C6.aspx (according to the RC website these will barely be cutting it for 550 crank horsepower. Personally I think this is overkill?)

Rods: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

[Series8217]

I personally no longer recommend Spec clutches. After seeing a Clutchnet disc and hearing about all the good experiences with them, it seems like that's the place to go with.
Matt Hawkins (over 400whp 3.4 DOHC with a Getrag) uses a stock Fiero pressure plate with a Clutchnet disc and has never had any problems. The hub design looks significantly stronger than the Spec. The springs are in a much sturdier housing, so the sprung hubs will definitely hold up to more torque than the Spec ones. They look a lot more durable. You can get all the same friction materials as Spec sells too.
The Spec center hub looks very flimsy, and people have had the springs pop out. I dont know if they were overtravelling the pressure plate fingers or if the metal fatigued, but either way the Clutchnet is a stronger design.
As an added benefit, the clutchnet setup should end up being the same price as or less than the Spec 3+, especially if you just use an OEM replacement pressure plate from a $100 Autozone clutch kit.

[fieromadman]

Yeah I dont know if I can really see myself buying the spec. As I was researching the most streetable high torque clutch I was reading about problems with the specs and people's opinions of the clutchnet. Seems the clutchnet is the way to go. I was thinking that I could re-use the spec stage two pressure plate that I have now and put in a new clutchnet disk, but I suppose that kinda depends on whether or not it's even a good idea or if the PP is in good shape or not.

[Aaron]

As far as the streetability goes, the Spec really can't be any better. It feels like a stock clutch. Even with my aluminum flywheel, and the other mods, the daily driving factor is still just as good as stock, if not better.

As for the durability, I really have no place to comment. The 2 I have are working good so far, but one only has about 5k on it, the other about 20 miles, at most.

[mrsleeve91]

Rods: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

Just thought you should know those rods wont work. Its because a sbc has 2 rods on one journal, so one side of each rod has a offset, and they are wider. Even if you ground off the difference of the width to fit the 60* crank the is still a .060" offset from the center line of the rod.

Trust me Ive got a set of H beams for the syclone for my build, and figured this all out, ended up going with a set of pauters. One word for those BEFFCAKE!!!

[Series8217]

A 4.3 (Syclone engine) is not a 60*. I think that guy is wrong regarding using those for the 60*. You remove the offset when you take off the extra width to fit a 60* V6 crank.
Those rods are 0.940" wide; you take .086" off from the crankshaft cheek side to get .854". This is according to GM.

[mrsleeve91]

A 4.3 (Syclone engine) is not a 60*. I think that guy is wrong regarding using those for the 60*. You remove the offset when you take off the extra width to fit a 60* V6 crank.
Those rods are 0.940" wide; you take .086" off from the crankshaft cheek side to get .854". This is according to GM.

Ok, hang on, he has a link to sbc rods (same as a sbc other than the rod journal size, and I am useing a 3.5 crank with 2.25 rod journals, same as the syclone)
and yes you can take the offset off, the .086" but the centerline of the rod is still off set.
so the the rod will not be in the center of the piston or on the center of the journal. the "center line" of the rod beam will be offset .060".
And I dont think thats close enough, for me anyway.

[Series8217]

Who knows about your crank. GM has instructions for using SBC rods in the 60* motors. This is what they did in race apps. The instructions are correct for that application. Yours probably has a different journal width or something.
I can't imagine the 90* V6 has the same journal width as the 60*.. that would mean they can use identical rods; then why wouldn't we just use aftermarket 90* rods?